Bi-wiring advantages?
bobboyer -- Wed, 04/22/2009 - 17:00
Not sure if this goes here or in the amp forum, but here goes. What is the theoretical advantage of bi-wiring a speaker? Practically speaking, how much inprovement in sound quality can be achieved in bi-wired mode? Specifically, will retaining bi-amped speaker wiring and using the low level pre-amp outputs to get a signal to my Definitive Tech SuperCube III subwoofer be superior to running one set of speaker leads to the monitors and the other set of speaker leads to the subwoofer as many suggest?
I understand bi-amping and have used such for some time with some JPW monitors and an Exposure 2010s integrated and Parasound HCA-600 but just recently purchased said subwoofer and have reverted to running the JPWs bi-wired off of the Exposure amp with a low level signal going to the sub. The addition of the sub (which I think is pretty well dialed in now) has made a huge imporvement in the overall balance of the system, I'm just curious what folks think of going to all high level signals to the speakers and the sub over what I'm doing now.
Thanks in advance,
Bob
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1999 - 2011 NextScreen. All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
If a speaker can be bi-wired, I've found that it's best to use bi-wired cables provided that the two runs of cables have the same electrical characteristics. It's possible to degrade performance by using cables of different characteristics because the cables introduce inductance and capacitance that is in effect modifying the speaker's crossover. That's why many top-end speakers don't offer a bi-wire option.
The REL subwoofers are connected by taking the signal off an amplifier's high-level outputs on the theory that it makes integration easier because the entire system has the "flavor" of the power amplifier.
I don't know how this would work with your Definitive, but it's certainly worth an experiement. I'd be interested in your impressions of the two connection methods.
Hi Robert -
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm running Nordost flatline cable to the monitors currently - I had just doubled up the runs initially for a single cable configuration, so yes, I'm using identical cables and identical lengths to the monitors. I'll probably go back and double the cables for the non bi-wired experiment and see what it sounds like running a high level signal to the sub. I think I've still got a few feet of flatline laying around here to run to the sub. Will probably experiment in mid-May when I get back from a trip.
Right now, the sound is very, very nice. The new Seas mid-woofers have a very, very smooth frequency response out to 3K and with the Definitive handling everything from 60 hz down, they lit up. There is definitely no BBC dip in this setup. The volume on the Definitive is only turned up one notch and plucked string bass is nearly in my lap, it's so real. I'm having to adjust to the new sound - many of my earlier CDs are much harder to listen to now, but boy, do the SACDs sing. The remastered live recording of Cannonball Adderly's quartet out in San Francisco is just spectacular. Can't wait to get my rebuilt cartridge back and try some LPs.
I'll report back on sending all high level signals to the sub and sats.
What's the difference sonically between bi-wiring with two separate cables and internal bi-wiring meaning the cable has one set of connections (+/-) on the amp end but two sets of connections on the speaker end?
Most manufacturers do not offer bi-wire not because of differences in the speaker cables electricals, but because people do not understand how to do it right.
1.0 Yes, you should use the SAME length and type of cable for EXTERNAL bi-wire.
2.0 No, you should NOT replace the INTERNAL wire in a speaker to bi-wire as that wire SHOULD ALREADY be considered in the speakers cross-over as a passive part, effecting x-over and tonal quality. You can make the speaker worse, by messing with the internal wiring if the speaker is if any quality. EXTERNAL is OK.
3.0 You should avoid running two bi-wire cables in the same sheath when you bi-wire as the higher current low-end section will inductively couple to the high frequency section, eliminating some of the advantages of bi-wire. Some quality speakers use An active X-over to roll off the low-end to amplifiers making this less of a problem.
4.0 Most people who bi-amp hear an improvement not because they use two amps, but because they are FORCED to bi-wire correctly, separet leads to each speaker section.
5.0 veyt good inexpensive leads can be made from Belden 1313A 10AWG speaker cable by REMOVING the burial grade and internal CMR flame rated jacketing. This poor electrical dielectric which isn't linear with respect to frequency that is necessary for burial or internal wall NEC requirements, isn't needed in your living room. But, the high quality 10AWG OFHC copper with polyethylene dielectric is great at audio frequencies. After you remove the outer jacket by LIGHTLY laterally scoring the outer jacket and pulling the cable throyugh the jacket, go to radio Shack and buy ten feet of POLYETHYLENE, NOT nylon, cable wrap. Poly is a great dielectric, nylon is NOT. Now spiral the poly around JUST TWO of the wires you prepared from 1313A minus the jacket in the length you want (up to ten feet, longer isn't really advised if you can help it). take TWO of thses leads in parallel, and connect one set of end parallel, and the opposite inds at TWO channels as low and upper. Use heat shrink tubing to make "pants" around each speaker end for cosmetics. CRIMP (I avoid solder as it is terrible sounding) high quality gold plated leads on each end. Remember, the amp end needs to hold TWO 10AWG leads, and the opposite ends are a SINGLE 10AWG end. You'll need to buy two different spade lugs or bananna lugs, depending on your amp and speaker requirements.
These leads cost a fraction of commercial leads, and are 100% high quality materials with low capacitance and inductance speaker leads. The beauty of it is, the cost is so good you can compare them to leads costing hundreds of times more and realize you have 98% of the effective improvements. For the savings, buy a better phono cartridge or better CD discs!
Contact me if you want a picture of the completed assembly for reference.
may i first say how glad i am to have found this forum! I have an Exposure 2010s integrated amplifier running a pair of Monitor Audio RS6s. Lovely sound for both audio and movies (only 2 channel though). I have just been gifted a REL Q200E sub which i understand is a fantastic little beast to add some rumble to my lovely but very clean setup. my question is how do i connect this. obviously i will be running the output from the amp RCA banana plugs of either the low or high outs (my speakers are biwired) but to what do i attach them on the rel? the REL has a Neutirk Soundon input which i have never used before. any expert advice would be vrey welcome and much appreciated.
may i first say how glad i am to have found this forum! I have an Exposure 2010s integrated amplifier running a pair of Monitor Audio RS6s. Lovely sound for both audio and movies (only 2 channel though). I have just been gifted a REL Q200E sub which i understand is a fantastic little beast to add some rumble to my lovely but very clean setup. my question is how do i connect this. obviously i will be running the output from the amp RCA banana plugs of either the low or high outs (my speakers are biwired) but to what do i attach them on the rel? the REL has a Neutirk Soundon input which i have never used before. any expert advice would be vrey welcome and much appreciated.
Hi Jason,
I was never able to make the Exposure properly drive my Definitive Tech sub from the speaker outputs like the REL, though it has a similar input option as yours. I've found though, that running line level from the "Preamp Out" RCA jacks on the Expsoure to the "Line In" RCA jacks on the sub is working very, very nicely. If you have that option on the REL, you can go ahead and hook it up that way and you may find you dont need the other cable, which I'd bet you have to source from REL.
If you can get it going, I think you'll find it very nice. Depending on your room size, you won't need a lot of volume from the sub. Mine's running at 1 or 1.5 out of 10 at the moment.
Many people have said that bi-wiring improved the sound quality of their speakers, and although I have not used it myself as it seemed to make little sense (and bi-amping being so far superior scientifically and actually), I will reserve judgement on bi-wiring until I know more. While there are some small measurable differences in bi-wiring, if sensibly sized cables are used the difference is unlikely to be audible unless the loudspeaker's crossover network has serious issues and anomalies.
While a mid to high passive crossover can be made reasonably economically and if well designed can sound very good (even excellent), there is often much to be gained by using a fully active system, where each driver has its own amplifier. So personally I wouldn't waste my time or money on bi-wiring, but I would definitely bi or tri amp my speakers.
The Linkwitz Lab site has much information on active amplication of each driver. In fact, the Linkwitz Orion speaker listed at the site is such an example and many consider it among the best speakers ever made.
Greg