Ayre or Pass Labs Amps ?

dunstansim -- Thu, 10/21/2010 - 00:03

I am currently using Ayre C-5xemp Disc player, Primare I30 integrated Amplifier and B & W 805S standmount speakers. I intend to upgrade my amps and I am thinking of changing to either Ayre K-5xemp & V-5xe pre and power amp combo OR Pass Labs XA30.5 and Xp-20  pre and power amp combo. I am also considering the Pass Lab INT-150 integrated amp or Plinius Hiato integrated amp .
Can anyone advise me which would be a better match for my Ayre C-5xemp Disc player ? While i can audition  Ayre K-5xemp & V-5xe with the Ayre Disc player, I cannot do that for the Pass labs and Plinius cos its sold by a different dealer.
Would welocme any advise.   Thanks

Peter D'Castro -- Fri, 10/22/2010 - 09:33

All the equipment you mention are good. It will be case of which version of good you want.

I think a good dealer you can have faith in, is worth gold. If I have trust in the dealer I will buy on first demo in half an hour. You can spend years auditioning equipment and not finding the 'perfect' match. If a trusted dealer presents you with something you think is good right off the bat, why waste time when you could be listening to music on better equipment. But it would not hurt to go visit the other dealer. He might prove to be better than your regular guy.

David Matz -- Fri, 10/22/2010 - 10:55

I agree that having a great dealer is invaluable. But the problem is that unless that dealer carries everything you want to hear, you may not get what you really want. You will be going on a recommendation because that's the piece the dealer may want to move. A few months later you hear something you like better. So just trusting a dealer will get you on the audiophile merry go round.

Peter D'Castro -- Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:54

You should not misrepresent what I say to suit your view. If the dealer flogs you equipment which are not suited to your needs he is not a GOOD dealer because you can't trust him. If you develop a rapport with a GOOD dealer, he will let you know when he has exceptional gear at good prices, because he values your return custom. I have had dealers suggesting I audition good new equipment, even though I am not in the market because they want to give me a heads up. When good equipment comes on the market, the dealers are in the know ahead of the audio press. You cannot say someone is a great dealer and at the same time say he will recommend something because he wants to move it. I have bought gear which a dealer has wanted to move, but at a knockdown price way below retail. Sophia 2 one third off retail because he wanted to put Sophia 3 on the shop floor. Did I get ripped off? I don't think so.

David Matz -- Sat, 10/23/2010 - 10:35

Easy, there. Obviously a good dealer will only purchase the items that they think are very good. And obviously they will recommend to you items they think will suit your taste and price point so you become a loyal customer and come back to upgrade.

But, not every dealer can carry every brand. And not every dealer will purchase every item in the line from the manufacturer. All I am suggesting is that the customer listens to as broad a variety of options as possible from as many dealers as necessary before pulling the trigger. For example, take 2 outstanding digital products like dCS and Meridian. A dealer is likely to carry only one but not the other. If my dealer is only selling dCS and not Meridian, or vice versa, they will push the brand they carry as "best". As a result, I can end up buying something that is very good, but something I may regret, if I hear that the other one later. It is really up to the customer to do the legwork to visit many dealers and to hear many options to make a good decision.

Peter D'Castro -- Mon, 10/25/2010 - 03:25

We are speaking at cross purposes. I am talking about good dealer behaviour and you are talking about average dealer behaviour.

Maybe the quality of good dealers in my area are exceptional, they do not push brands. A top speaker manufacturer, whose top speaker sells for more that the Sophia 2, told me in his audio store, the Sophia 2 was a good speaker and the best Wilson Audio design he had heard. I have had a dealer phone another dealer to make an appointment for me to listen to gear I was interested in. The most recent put down of a brand I received was on the grounds that the distributor may have problems financially supporting the brand. A good dealer does not go around putting down brands because he might be stocking that brand next year. If a good dealer does not carry a brand, he will demo an alternative, it is up to the buyer to make the decision.

The point I am making, and you overlook, is that a good dealer will help you put together a good system. A good system is the sum of its parts, not good gear cobbled together.

David Matz -- Tue, 11/02/2010 - 15:37

"The point I am making, and you overlook, is that a good dealer will help you put together a good system. A good system is the sum of its parts, not good gear cobbled together."

If that is your purpose, check out a book by Jim Smith called "Get Better Sound". A lot of good tip there. http://www.getbettersound.com/

Depending on which cables or tweaks your dealer will recommend for you to buy to make your system sound "whole", you can fly out Jim Smith to your house to setup and tweak your system. Good luck in your journey.

David Matz -- Fri, 10/22/2010 - 11:13

The Ayre gear is very musical and detailed. Some call it forward, but others just get lost in the music. The Pass XA30.5 is SS, but sounds like it is a tube amp set to triode - nice midrange, but dull transients and comromised bottom end.

I think these are very different beasts. You will have to listen to decide. Good Luck

Robert Harley -- Fri, 10/22/2010 - 21:03

The Pass Labs gear is extraordinary, in my experience. The amplifiers have a richness of timbre and warmth in the midrange that is reminiscent of tubes, but without the tube colorations or softness in the bass. I lived with the XA-100.5 for quite some time and really enjoyed my time with them. The INT-150 sounds very similar to the XA-100.5.

dunstansim -- Mon, 10/25/2010 - 07:32

Thanks guys. My worry is that I heard that Pass labs amps gerates a lot of heat. After talking to the Ayre dealer, I am also considering a combo of either Ayre K5 xemp and MX-R or the V-5xe and the KX-R. Cannot afford both MX-R and KX-R. Dealer recommends the K5 and MX-R combo as he says that the mp version of the K5 is vastly improved.
If given the choice between upgrading a pre-amp or a power amp, which component upgrade would have more impact on the sound quality ??
It will be a toss up between Pass Labs and Ayre - will be travelling to audition them in Nov . Hopefully it will make the choice easier (or maybe more difficult ?).

ddetaey -- Mon, 10/25/2010 - 14:09

Dunstamin

I have replaced a Pass Pre X.02 and Power AMP X250.5 by an Ayre MX-R & KX-R combo (trio).

The main reasons was indeed heat, as during summertime, I was not able even to play 1 CD completely.
Of course, this has everything to do with the speakers to be driven by the power amp. At the heat level, the Pass X250.5 was more or less OK on the 'heat' level with my Wilson Audio Sophia 1's. When I replaced those with Magico V3's, it was just not bearable anymore.

If you would choose to go for the Ayre, the you should definitely go with the Ayre MX-R. I have done some heavy comparisons between the KX-R and the K5x. There were some differences ( wider soundstage was the one that came evident almost immediately), but in the end they were subttle and only noticeable in direct comparison. with an improved K5 I believe the difference will even be smaller.
Further more, and I don't know if that is the case with you, more and more DAC's are able to drive a poweramp directly.

The reason I bought the KX-R are very simple : I liked the (slightly) better sound and I had the budget available (thanks to the excellent second-hand value of the Pass Labs equipment !).

In the end however it is all about the sonic picture both brands provide in combination with your speakers! and you are the only one entitled to make the choice.

I wish you lots of pleasure , falling in love over again with your music, after making your decision

Cheers
Dirk

dunstansim -- Tue, 10/26/2010 - 10:37

Hi Dirk,
Many thanks for sharing your experience. Most helpful. As I live in the tropics, your experience is causing me to lean toward the Ayre amps.
But I have two questions:
1) Having heard both Pass Labs and Ayre amps in your system, would you choose the Arye amps over the Pass Labs if heat had not been an issue with the Pass Lab amp ?
2) Can you describe the sonic differences that you heard  between the Ayre combo and the Pass Labs combo ? From the reviews that I have read, Pass Labs seems to have a more liquid tube- like sound compared to the Ayres. The Ayre sound has been described as tilting towards the lean side.
Cheers and thanks again for your input.

ddetaey -- Tue, 10/26/2010 - 14:22

Dunstansim

I am happy to share with you my preferences, but first this warning. I have only longtime experience with the Pass X250.5 poweramp, NOT with the XA series. I have enjoyed these at different sesions at my hifi dealer, but as these are operating fully in CLass A, with even more generated heat than the X-series, I have not taken them in consideration when looking for a cooler one. For the sound, and the company, I might have.

Now for my sonic impressions.
Overall I would say the Ayre MX-R is the more balanced amp, and the Pass Lab is more the 'power' as in rock and big symphony works.
I would say the Pass Labs get more drive 'forward', whilst the Ayre has a wider and deeper soundstage, giving its a attention to all parts of the music equally. This may sound as 'lean', depending what one is used to, but exact the opposite is through. All the music is there, with a very detailed, and as the name suggets, airy flair (flavor) going with it.

So today, as I am listening to a much bigger variety of music compared with 10 years ago (almost only rock and blues) , I definitely prefer the Ayre MX-R over the Pass Labs X250.5.

Coming back one more time on the argument of the Ayre sounding 'lean'.

About 1,5 year before replacing my amps, I replaced my Wilson Audio Sophia 1 by the Magico V3's that I have now.
In fact, I was looking only looking to an upgrade of my speakers because I wanted more bass. I have been auditioning the Wilson Watt/Puppy 7&8, as well as the Wilson Maxx 2 & 3's.
I never liked the Wilson 7, nor the 8, because for my taste, they were not coherent. I liked the Wilson MAX 3, but only in a big enough room.
Which I don't have.:-).
I have been listening to a couple of other speakers, such as Avalon, Verity Audio, Hansen, to name a few. But as gooad as they sounded, they did not improve on my Sophia's in the way I was looking (hearing) for.
Till one day I was invited for a listening session on Magico speaker, both the Mini's and the V3. I was sold in 2 minutes, only confirmed stronger after 30minutes. I then had the opportunity to test the V3's (I wanted more bass, remember) for about 3 weeks at home, without any 'firm' obligation.
What I have learned during these weeks, was that the Magico's did NOT provide more bass than the Sophia's, and not with the same 'punch'. However, the bass was much more detailed and refined. So one would be able to say that the Magico's are sounding 'leaner' than the Sophia's, but again this is not true at all. Because of its very coherent behaviour over all frequencies, the Magico gives a much more satisfying sound and filled in my need for more ' bass' perfectly, albeit in a complete other way than expected. (Please keep in mind there were not yet Wilson Audio Sasha's and Sophia 3's at the horizon).
However, the Magico's don't ( and never will) provide you with the 'punch' and 'slam' of live rock music at moderate listening levels. If you want that you will want a ported design such as the Wilson Audio's.

Well, the same is true for the Ayre and the Pass Labs. If you want to 'rock' , go for Pass. If you prefer coherency, go for Ayre MX-R.

Please note : your taste may vary from mine, and in the end, it's the only one that counts!

Regards

Dirk

P.S. : One extra remark : in my setup I have only used 3-way speakers, not 2 -ways like your B&W605's. Could be a competely different ballgame.

dunstansim -- Tue, 10/26/2010 - 10:37

dunstansim -- Wed, 10/27/2010 - 08:50

Hi Dirk,
Thanks for your very thorough analysis. I listen mostly to jazz (vocal and sax) and light classical (concertos, chamber music) so I am not looking for power or bass. Anyway my B & W's does not have the bass extension. So I am definitely leaning towards the Ayre amps at the moment. If I do, I will end up having a complete Ayre system. Hopefully there will be some sort of synergy at work. I am also more familiar with the Ayre dealer so that helps.
To digress from the subject of amps, after upgrading my amps, my next upgrade (hopefully in the not too distant future) will be my speakers.
I know they say that there is substitute for actually auditioning the system yourself, but I am curious about the speakers you tested before settling for the V3. Based on what I have read and my budget , my next speaker upgrade will either be the Magico V2 or the Avalon Indra (both about the same price). TAS has never actually done a head to head comparison between these 2 speakers (which is a pity).  Have you actually listened to both these speakers and if yes, what are your views on them ? If you have not , then perhaps you don't mind sharing your views on the sonic differences between the "house" sound of Magicos and the Avalons generally
Cheers :)

ddetaey -- Wed, 10/27/2010 - 10:19

Dunstansim

I have never had a decent listening session with the Magico V2's , except for a trade show.

I have posted earlier on my listening experiences with the Avalon Indra & Magico V3's, please look at :
http://www.avguide.com/forums/comparing-avalon-indra-magico-v3

Cheers

Dirk

JLeeMD -- Thu, 11/04/2010 - 09:20

I have the Mark Levinson No.383 integrated amplifier. It has an absolute polarity invert button on the remote and as a result I have come to appreciate the importance of listening to a recordings in the proper absolute polarity...better soundstaging/imaging, truer timbres, more musically involving. Roy Gregory has commented on its importance. Robert Harley posted similar sentiments on this forum. Unfortunately, a significant number of recordings are of opposite polarity to one another (i.e., Patricia Barber and Jacintha recordings). My point? If you are going to spend big $ on an integrated or preamp, make sure it has this feature. You may not appreciate its significance now if you've never owned equipment that allows you to invert absolute polarity on the fly but, once you do, you will never go back! Mark Levinson and Audio Research integrateds and preamps have this feature. Pass does not. I am not sure about Ayre. I believe the Plinius Hiato does.

BRsound -- Thu, 11/04/2010 - 11:01

I'd really pick the Pass Labs XA30.5 without second thoughts.