Is Audiogon Safe?
Sam -- Wed, 10/21/2009 - 03:23
some people on Audiogon.com are selling audio components that are recently released or near mint condition or fairly new models of gear sometimes at 1/2 price? Is it safe to buy anything from there? Why would anyone buy some of this stuff and sell it at 1/2 the price? I don't see the logic or reason. and in the descriptions they say nothing about the history of the product or why they are selling it or who/where they are at? etc..... any thoughts?
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I have been buying high end gears and selling it on ebay and audiogon for many years now. But in paying all of the fees, I still believe the safeest route is to make good relations with your local dealer. For many items I have not been able to find locally, I do it on line.
But I am also tired of paying fees and commissions to these sites. And the responsibility to use caution such as paypal and credit cards or even buying from someone with high feedback rating from ebay or any other site is all up to you.
Recently, however, I found a new site that I like a lot as it seems to be centered for high end audio and video gears. www.myaudiolisting.com
Many of the dealers that are listed there I know personally and many of the users I am sure can be traced back to audiogon and ebay if you asked them. So to me it is not about the site as it is about the buyer and seller doing their due diligence and belonging to a community where one can track each other down. Most of the people who sell on these sites are all the same people and have the same businesses. In fact I was looking through the new site and many of the same dealers who ppost in Audiogon.com also post at myaudiolisting.com . So what is the difference really?
A key message to me is you have to make sure you know who you are dealing with. I have run into some bad people on Audiogon who do not respond to emails quickly once you send payments, and then they act like jerks when you ask questions fter the deal is done.
Lol on "acting like jerks". They must be car dealers or audio dealers! Who else would do that:)
Boomzilla,you are absolutely wrong with your comments
Other websites such as ebay are safer.
I have purchase on a regular basis and I can frankly tell you that its a friendly community at Audiogon
and dealing with Paypal is safest option.
Unless, you have been Cheated or Have Bad experience with audiogon,pls reserve your comments because they are worthy people out there , who are very pleased with Audiogon.
A shout out for both local dealers and for Audiogon. I've had better exeperience buying and selling on Audiogon than on e-bay. I've only had one item purchased on Audiogon arrive in poor shape, and the seller immediately refunded me and told me to keep the item. On e-bay, it's a crap shoot (e.g., when buying vinyl). I bought a Basis turntable from someone on Audiogon last summer who became a mentor and friend regarding audio gear (I consult with him often before making any purchases; a real good guy); Another person (owns a high end audio dealership that does a lot of biz on Audiogon) I bought from has become my primary dealer for audio equipment that I buy, and a good friend. So for me, Audiogon has been an extremely positive experience. Most of the members care deeply about the hobby and music and are looking to help others, not take advantage of others. Some are into high volume, soul-less transactions, but most are solid citizens.
I for one have only one problem with Audiogon. People will go to a dealer and listen to gear, take his time and pick his brain. Then go to Audiogon to buy it. Then when it breaks go back to the dealer and expect him to fix it. Audiogon has a place yes, but it will never replace a good dealer. When was the last time a person advertising an amp let you take it home and try it out? People who "flip" audio gear for a living will enjoy Audiogon. Real music lovers may not.
I haven't read all the reply's so this may have already been mentioned.
Some of the above reply's mention that if you buy from Audiogon and pay using PayPal that you have PayPal protection. Not so, PayPal only give protection to eBay buyers, or at least that use to be the case and I doubt that it has changed. No doubt the reason being that by giving protection to eBay clients they hope to encourage you to shop with Ebay which as you know has the same owners as PayPal, hence more commission.
When I had my own Internet store PayPal did not give any protection to buyers who purchased from my online store however, PayPal gave protection to buyers if I sold them the same products through eBay.
How would you guys recomend payment?
I am in Canada looking to pick up two old-model Proceed amps (just got the old matching pre and liked it) from Salt Lake City, Utah, and the private seller would like to arrange cash in advance, and avoid cash on delivery, and is asking for method of payment.
I would feel more comfortable dealing with the Mormon chruch (though I feel they would be just fine with less "buyer-beware" terms) this way, as I would at least have someone to contact and somehow hope to do the right thing, but how does one properly buy something at a distance, privately.
I bought the pre for a local gentemen, who took a ferry to meet me, and we had a nice talk about audio, handed over some cash, and got to know each other a bit - it was great of him to make the trip, and I got to see a the local ferry in a new way, and enjoy a new shopping experience.
Back home, the pre worked flawlessly, and came with remote and manual. He bought it off EBay, and I found the matching amps on Audiogon.
The photos of the unit look genuine (though they could be copies), but I am more worried about wiring money to a bank account, and then that is it.
Plus, there is duty and taxes cross-border, which is an odd policy, on used domestic toys, and given a NAFTA trade agreement.
Any advice from the seasoned?
Staxguy
I use paypal with Audiogon.
No issues so far after quite a few transactions.
My best advice - set up a Paypal account if you don't have one already.
Your biggest problem will be shipping. It is a PITA. Some sellers won't ship to Canada because of the hassle.
DON NOT USE UPS OR FED EX - they will use a customs broker and charge you for the "service".
I would advise USPS for shipping to and from Canada to the US.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Staxguy...don't EVER wire money, and especially internationally. You have absolutely no recourse if the seller chooses not to send the unit. I've learned my lesson, thank goodness it was only $100 (a rare Japanese CD). If someone won't take Paypal, my advice is don't deal with them. If you have to, send an extra 3% to cover his/her Paypal fees...it's worth it...and yes, the protection program applies to Ebay purchases only. And as LEFTFOOT says below...use a credit card to fund the Paypal purchase if buying outside Ebay, so you can get a chargeback from your CC company if all other methods of settlement fail.
made my first audiogon purchase today, a dynaco st 70 power amp, will let you know how smooth the transaction go.
I made an Audiogon purchase, paid with Paypal. Audiogon seller did not send the item. Audiogon washed their hands, and Paypal promptly did the same thing. This was the last time I used Audiogon. It was a few years back so a one time sour experience from Audiogon may not be a good example. From what I hear every once in awhile bad transactions do happen. But it is certain that neither Audiogon nor Paypal offer bulletproof, safe transactions. What really upset me was that Audiogon did not suspend the bogus seller's account and I understand it was not his first swindle on Audiogon.
Over the past seven years, I've had more than 60 transactions on Audiogon, roughly equal numbers buying and selling. Only a couple of them were problematic (e.g. goods damaged in shipping), but nothing that was outright fraud. The vast majority of Audiogon users are honest and contentious in their dealings, but it only takes one bad apple to spoil it for everyone else. And it does seem like the caliber of both buyers and sellers has gradually declined over the years, not quite down to eBay's wild west levels, but certainly not the tight-knit clan of audio enthusiast brethren that it used to be.
The fact that Audiogon permits sellers to veto postings of negative feedback is unconscionable, and makes the feedback system inherently compromised. Audiogon gets paid by its sellers, so it has incentive to keep them happy. Of course, ignoring buyers' concerns will eventually dwindle the customer base.
IMO, the safest way to pay for anything on Audiogon is using PayPal funded by a credit card. That way, in the event that something goes horribly wrong and neither Audiogon nor PayPal will fix it, you can always appeal to your credit card company. The credit card company has the authority to yank back the money from the seller until the matter is resolved. (PayPal has such authority as well, but its official protection plan only applies to eBay purchases.) Your credit card company is more inclined to listen to your complaints and force the seller to prove that they deserve the money.
"IMO, the safest way to pay for anything on Audiogon is using PayPal funded by a credit card."
Excellent point. CC companies can always do a "chargeback".
Sorry, my prior post should have said "The vast majority of Audiogon users are honest and conscientious..." instead of "contentious".
I've had nothing but great experiences on Audiogon. Where as Ebay I've been sold fake SHM CD's and nothing was done by Ebay. The guy is still selling his fake (Good ones at that) SHM CD's and SACDs.
Purshed two items from Audiogon in the last year. First was a pair of Transparent MusicWave Super (mm1) speaker cables. There was absolutely no issue in any aspect of the transaction. To this day they are wonderful performers, no flaws whatsoever. Second was a Pass X150.5 amplifier (my dream amp for my MG 1.7s). Transaction was fine, thats were it ended. Two issues arouse after owning the amp for 1 day. Issue one, my speaker cable banana connectors were not able to insert fully into two binding posts. Apparently these two binding posts had small cylindrial rounds of plastic wedged deeply in the binding post so that the speaker wire could only be half inserted. Issue 2, the left channel had a low-level hiss that could be heard from the left loudspeaker when one is close to the speaker. It was completely absent from the right channel. Whether or not music is playing this persists from the moment the amp is turned on from standbye. In addition, about 10 mins after switching the amp on a crackling sound emerges from the left channel in addition to the hiss, again the right channel does not posses any of these sonic issues. Sent it to Pass Labratories who were more than happy to take a look at the amp. Awaiting assesment, hopefully its not going to cost a fortune to fix.
I was once almost defrauded at Audiogon. This was about five years ago. The ad was for a pair of nice bookshelf speaker offered at 2k ish. Thinking back, there were a plenty of red flags. The offered price was substantially less than the market. The seller had no feedback. And the photos used in the ad were stock. Well, I had bought 10+ equipment at the site, and started trusting the ethical standards of the participants of the site. I contacted the seller who promptly shot me back friendly notes. We agreed on the price, then he wrote me back saying he wanted to use his "Yahoo Finance" service account he personally subscribed to. Those who know the scam can stop reading. For those who don't, this is how the scam is presented to you. The seller claims that the safest way for both parties to do transaction is for the buyer to send a cash payment to "a third party account under Yahoo Finance" by Western Union. Once the money is in the account, the seller ships the item but the account holds the money until the buyer receives the item. It sounds good, but it is all scam. There is not such a Yahoo service. The money goes straight to the seller, and only you get is a phone number to which the cash is wired. Anyway, I actually went to Western Union, arranged for cash wire, but just when I was going to email the wire info to the seller, I decided to google the e-mail message that the seller had sent me. And bingo, the whole mail was already in the web. My eyes popped out of the eye sockets (or so I felt). Interestingly enough, the exactly same scam had victimized members of a Canadian used audio equipment site. I called Western Union to cancel the wire (they were nice enough not to charge any fee), contacted Audiogon, which promptly erased the ad. Granted that this scam could occur at any buy/sell site. It's just that Audiogon places no safeguard whatsoever that prevents the scammers from putting their "ads". It is solely your responsibility not to fall into the trap.
Regardless of the site, there is no substitute for due diligence, as elle's story illustrates. 0 feed back - WARNING, Western Union - Game over...
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
I became curious for myself, so I searched for e-mails related to my experience after I posted above. This scam occurred in July 2007. In 2007, this was a relatively unknown scam. After I google searched for "Yahoo Finance scam" at the time, it was not immediately clear whether this was a scam. I remember there were only a handful of reports of incidents similar to mine, and most of the reports were in the form of somebody asking others whether this was a legit escrow account. Only after combing through search results, I found one case (again in the Canadian used audio equipment forum) where people concluded this was a scam. This was where I saw the exact copy of the letter I received from my seller posted. Another thing to note is that, even though I had a vague idea of what Western Union existed for, I had never used their service either for sending or receiving money all my life, so I didn't quite understand the danger of using the system. Only after I arranged for the cash transfer with Western Union, I realized that it would be nearly impossible to track the receiver of the money if I simply e-mail the transaction number to him/her. Funny thing is, if you google search for the same words today, there will be no mistake this is a scam. Meanwhile, there are new types of scam being created every minute.
So many opinions and few facts. The point is not how many succesfull transactions one has on Ebay, Audiogon, etc., the truth is, how does the web site, in this case Audiogon ..react and support one or multiple buyers who get ripped off.......... in our case by turning it's back on the all of the buyers.
I left Audiogon and never have looked back.
Must confess I do surf the site occasionally to look at the used stuff.... but my stern e-mail to them did get a reaction from Audiogon... banned for life.
How's that for one of 9 Dutch bidders who all got ripped off a Denon DL-160, and the fraudulent seller is still on Audiogon selling,
While this person made off with over $1200 of our money he is atill active and sheltered by Audiogon.
Good transactions, bad transactions..... it's how the site reacts when someone gets ripped off.
In Audiogon's case I along with 9 other give them an F.
Facts are facts.. the rest is opinion.
Until you get swindled, you will realize that Paypal and Audiogon are nowhere to be found when you need them.
I purchased a Denon DL-160 and got a letter with a print out of the specifications of the Cartridge from Jerry Raskins Needle Doctor, the Audiogon thief enjoyed his theft and sent a piece of paper instead of a product. This is no joke, this is a fact.
I escalated to Paypal and Audiogon.... no support, just cookie cutter responses and a loss of $100 USD.
I agree with Shermanr about the fact that the Audiogon is nowhere to be found when a dispute occurs. Although I have been a member for about ten years and have had hundreds of successful transactions, two of my transaction experiences have been a nightmare. It is an absolute fact that Audiogon will not do anything to enforce thier rules in most if not all cases. If you care to do a small amount of research, you will find sufficient and convincing evidence to support this claim. In that regard, you are on your own to do whatever necessary to protect yourself in any transaction on thier site. It is almost criminal that they do nothing and just sit back and collect your money without accepting thier responsibilities as an arbitrator and enforcer of the rules of the site. It seems that it is too much trouble for them to accept thier responsibilities and would rather ignore any and all issues that are brought to thier attention. Feedback is a joke on the site since it is impossible to give someone negative feedback even when you are clearly scammed and have irrefutable documentation of such. Given the lack of enforcement on thier site, I'm not sure what is preventing thier marketplace from falling into total anarchy. One day it will all fall apart and someone that is not so greedy will take thier place. Until then my advice would be; use thier site if you feel the need, but buyer beware!
I have used Audiogon to help compel a buyer and a seller to fulfill their side of the deal. However, in these instances, the buyer/seller had become distracted with the transaction and they needed prodding. Where Audiogon comes up short is censoring negative feedback on their system. Negative feedback won't stop first-time offenders. However, it will alert buyers and sellers of other un-reputable members. That, in itself, is the greatest deterrent to someone becoming a repeat offender,
For example, I responded to a thread about the dealer TTWeights. I outlined the events that happened and explained the unscrupulous behavior of TTWeights owner, Larry Denham. (That reply did get posted. Which is to Audiogon's credit.) However, after TTWeights gave a rebuttal, Audiogon would not allow anymore replies to the thread. (Someone can follow up directly with me about my comment.) However, the thread termination stifles the natural vetting process and, it may falsely give weight to the member with the final comment.
NOTE: From my earlier thread here on AVGuide, I noted that Audiogon had shut me out of my account. There must be a management shift going on there, because I finally got through to someone at Audiogon and explained what happened to my account. They offered me repeat apologies and re-instated my account. From my experience, it is still the best marketplace for purchasing used audio equipment and researching the merits of equipment. It is not a perfect environment. However, they seem to be responding to member feedback.
The only time I had a purchase go bad was from Audiogon. Not mentioning names or gear, but I bought something clearly advertised "mint" "perfect working order" only to find it was, in fact, not mint and needs adjustment. Whats more, the person who sold it to me is "of repute". I expected more, but nothing like this. Moreover, I can confirm it was NOT shipping damage.
But there is almost anyone with a bad experience with everything, so take it for what its worth. But if buying from a store I think it would be safer.
This thread is quite old now. Be aware that Audiogon has become a very unsafe site. Many people have lost literally thousands of dollars. The Audiogon site has seen some serious security breaches and people have sent money into the blue.
A favorable follow up on TTWeights. In March-April I worked out a satisfactory resolution with TTW. They make a fine product and I am very pleased with the way they resolved my complaint.
The answer is No!!! Not at all.. so many accounts have been hacked and lots of people are getting ripped off. many of the ads you may see from real dealers are not that dealers listings at all.. I know of three dealer friends of mine that have been hit just within a month. they are hacking the accounts changing the passwords and listing fake ads and taking money. beware!! I would suggest anyone looking to purchase on audiogon to demand to speak by phone to the seller..
oh..oh..yes..i noticed..that too..and plus i had a happy deal with Audiolimits 2 yrs ago...too ...
i am quite an active buyer from Audiogon ..as well as other online buying...for HIEND around the world. i can say..as long as not too greedy..never touch those too good to be turth..then..we all be safe no matter where we are...
good deals and friendship was made from Audiogon, howeveer recently something strange...is happening.. example and i should not quote any specific name of the seller..etc..
recently : i notices a few items: (fromm last week)
well it is very obvious...it is likely to be scam...
however the funny things...is..
hence i try to contact the dealer direct...to seek his comment, as his Audiogon Acount may be hacked , wish to hear his feedback soon
those items were supsended after a fews days, there were always soem funny item listed and be supensded , however it is the first time..i notice those funny items were listed by some offical and verifired commercial Audiogon members...
so from last week , i have my extra caution
also a few weeks ago, i got an fake "audiogon" email for asking me to log into audiogon from the link for membership verification
the hidden link was "app-audigon.com...." but not the latest "app.audiogon.com"
as Audio limits mentioned above.. if u wanna buy soemthing..pick up the phone and call the dealer to verify..
until now..if no further corrective action etc..from audiogon, i would said..Audiogon at this moment, it is no longer safe
I miss the old A'gon.
Last Fridy, I responded to a newly posted Audiogon ad, which was borderline too good to be true, but not impossible. The account had 37 all positive feedbacks, although I noticed that the majority of the feedbacks were from 2003-2007, and the last one was in 2010. I entered the dialogs with the pos(t)er with plenty of suspicion. Nothing obviously fake about his replies, though. He definitely had some knowledge on the amps he was offering to sell. Anyway, the ad was eliminated after three days with no trace. I immediatly suspected the hacking, but sent a message to the account, asking what happened. Today, I received a message from the true account holder, who wrote to me that his account had been hacked and the ad was a bogus. Scary stuff.
A website that removes honest and documented feedback from a buyer who has spent $2500 through their website cannot be trusted. I won't deal with them anymore.
It's generally easy to tell the scam artists on both EBAY and Audiogon. They are on both sites although I've seen way more scams on EBAY. Always look at feedback and request sellers phone number to discuss item live.
EBAY actually over protects buyers to the point of hurting good sellers at the expense of rip off artist buyers. Ebay will refund money to a buyer on a pretty flimsy case and they are so large, it is impossible to discuss with them live after they have closed a disputed case. Google this and see horror stories from EBAY sellers - the list goes on forever.
Back to Audiogon and deals too good to be true. While there are occasionally some frauds, given many items have a 40% or more dealer markup, it is very likely to find items as dealer demos being sold at 50% off list.
I have always had good selling and buying experiences on Agon. I even once wired funds to Europe for a high end cartridge after multiple communications with seller, reviewing his prior feedback on high end items, and checking S/N for authenticity. Cartridge arrived DHL 5 days after my wire transfer. I would do business again with him - user name is Hari
I worked out a dispute with another Euro seller to cancel an auction I won after the seller would not tell me the S/N claiming he would have to open the LP- S Benz cartridge (which is BS as their S/N are on the bottom of the wrapped box). The primary reason I asked was the packaging picture showed LP, but the listing claimed it was LP-S. I told seller I could not complete the sale under those circumstances. Seller wanted me to pay all his listing fees and I worked with Agon to refund his fees. So they do appear to respond to issues raised.
One point of caution for US buyers purchasing European or Asian brands from foreign sellers on either EBAY and Audiogon . You will probably have to deal directly with a Foreign dealer if you ever need repair as US dealers won't be able to send it back thru the US importer. I would be careful about European sellers of Clearaudio or Benz for this reason even though they could be perfectly legitimate. You would have to send it back directly to European dealer if you ever needed a rebuild or retip.
Even tho I did wire funds to the Euro seller, as a rule I would only use paypal backed by your credit card so you have protection if you never receive the item. It costs 3 ( 4% extra I foreign) but is clearly worth it.
I had a seller tell me after the purchase the shipping would not be at cost...it would be $15 to ship a $100 cartridge. That's right...a cartridge. Audiogon sided with the seller. $15 isn't a lot of money in the scheme of things, but I'd hope a seller who wants to charge triple the real cost of shipping would say so in the ad.
I concur with alot of what's been said in this thread, I have had a lot of successful dealings on Audiogon and met some really nice sellers/buyers. Audiogon is a great selling tool as long as everything goes smooth with a transaction. But as has been said before, when a transaction has issues and negative feedback is attempted, Audiogon over rides it if the other party contests it. Pretty shameful, doesn't give the submitting party an opportunity to disclose their problem for all Audiogon users to see.I sold a integrated to a buyer (morbius2130aol) who claimed that upon arrival the remote did not function, that the receiving unit in the Rotel must be damaged. After some conversation he changed his tune, stating that some of the remote buttons did work but most did not. He also mentioned at some point that some of the remote buttons worked intermittently. It didn't matter what I advised him, he kept stating he was going to return the Rotel even though all the other functions of the integrated worked perfectly. I even offered him 90 bucks (the cost of shipping both ways) refund to not have to return the unit. Figured that would buy a nice universal remote to control the Rotel. He refused, and sent it back.I took a day off from work to sign for it, took it out of the box and hooked it up and guess what? Remote functioned perfectly. There was nothing wrong at all with the unit. I had my wife video me while I worked all the buttons on the remote to show I wasn't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. I tried contacting the buyer, asking him what exactly the problem had been and he refused to respond. Never did reply. I can only assume he received the Rotel, for whatever reason decided he didn't want it, and fabricated an issue to force me to allow him to return it. He never had the decency to respond to me. I contacted Audiogon, left negative feedback and explained why. After a few days I saw that the feedback had not been posted, and contacted Audiogon again to ask why not. I received a curt email explaining that the buyer had contested my feedback and that Audiogon had then canceled it. And once it was canceled, that was Audiogon's final decision and it could not be reversed. Of course I emailed Audfogon again and asked how I could trust the feedback of any buyer or seller on their site if no negative feedback could be left. They of course ignored my email. Makes me a tad leary of using Audiogon, I know my feedback is legit, but how do I know about anyone else's?