Is Audiogon Safe?
Sam -- Wed, 10/21/2009 - 03:23
some people on Audiogon.com are selling audio components that are recently released or near mint condition or fairly new models of gear sometimes at 1/2 price? Is it safe to buy anything from there? Why would anyone buy some of this stuff and sell it at 1/2 the price? I don't see the logic or reason. and in the descriptions they say nothing about the history of the product or why they are selling it or who/where they are at? etc..... any thoughts?
Audiogon is, by definition, less safe than e-Bay / PayPal. On e-Bay, you can see the feedback history of the person with whom you're dealing. If the vendor has a history of selling expensive audio items and good feedback for doing so, then you can have at least some confidence that they're legit. Additionally, PayPal can be used to deny payment if the item you receive is significantly other than its description.
For Audiogon, you have none of these protections. Of course, there is the option of using a third party payment service that offers protection. Additionally, you often have the luxury of communicating extensively with the seller prior to the sale. All of the questions that you mention I would probably ask before even considering an audiogon purchase. If any of the answers I received seemed incomplete, evasive, or illogical, I'd not consider that vendor at all.
Finally, there are legit reasons for selling at a significant discount - the item may be scratched, damaged, or a factory second. The item may be from an estate sale or garage sale where even for half the original value the vendor is making money. The item may be from a business that has gone bankrupt, and the distress sale of assets may dictate that a quick sale is better than one that maximizes profits. Take each case on its merits and see.
Having said all this, I must also say that I've never bought an item via Audiogon. My preferred methods of equipment acquisition are (in order of preference) garage/estate sales, clearance sales at local shops, e-Bay, and craigslist. I would also say that my buying habits have occasionally been "penny wise and pound foolish." Although I've owned lots of nice equipment over the years, I've seldom achieved that synergy that a well-matched set of components can create. For this reason, I've recently taken Mr. Robert Harley's advice and am now shopping for a dealer, rather than for components. Happy Shopping!
Boomzilla
A good sense of humor makes it ALL sound better!
Sorry Boomzilla but this is misinformation at it's worst.
Audiogon most definitely has a feedback system and most sellers accept PayPal, albeit with 3% surcharge.
In fact there have been many instances on eBay of serious rip off merchants selling equipment at the most unbelievable prices to the point that eBay themselves posted a stern warning on the audio pages about these people and their practices.
The Audiogon community is made up of like minded Audiophiles and resellers who are open to any questions or scrutiny.
The products offered are given a "condition" mark out of ten and in most cases a complete history of purchase and use is available. There are also a huge amount of new-in-box products available at big savings over RRP.
The beauty of this community lies in it's closed circle. If a seller is a rip off artist he will be outed in no time flat. Meanwhile should you need to ask questions about a product itself or its performance in relation to other pieces then you can expect that someone has had experience with that situation and will offer a fair and unbiassed report.
Even if I intend to purchase from a dealer I always post questions on the Audiogon forum to hear how others experiences might help with my buying decision.
For a small fee tou can also gain access to their Blue Book of used hifi prices.
I recently planned on buying a new pick up and received many great posts on my choices including a hugely detailed post from one of the cartridge designers himself.
You don't get that on eBay or for that matter from a local dealer.
As in all things if it sounds too good to be true then it normally is.
But so far I have had 100% satisfaction buying from the site and saved thousands of dollars in the process.
For an Audiophile living on an island in the middle of nowhere Audiogon is my lifeline.
That closed circle can be a help to those in the circle and a problem for everyone else. I've quietly tolerated quite a bit of attitude from Audiogon members and Audiogon themselves in order to make my transactions in peace.
I have successfully bought and sold items via Audiogon.
Safeguards include member's feedback and the ability to pay via Paypal.
As with any online transaction the secret to success is to "KNOW THE SELLER OR BUYER"
Always correspond via email and if possible (if they are in the same country) via phone to confirm details of the transaction.
If any deal seems too good to be true, walk away. Greed (the desire for a deal that is too good) is what gets you in trouble.
I have, over the past fifteen years, sold musical instruments and hifi gear to people all over the world and I've never had a deal go bad. Most people are honest, and if you ask enough questions the dishonest ones will stand out.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Thanks, Steven - I've learned something. I didn't realize that Audiogon had seller feedback or that PayPal was an option. I agree with your other comments, point-for-point.
Boomzilla
A good sense of humor makes it ALL sound better!
Audiogon is a great resource. Buyer and seller feedback is available as well as Paypall. When I got back into the high-end six years ago, I bought my speakers, turntable, tonearm, cartridge and cables from a dealer and my electronics from Audiogon. I have since upgraded my electronics each time on audiogon and never had a problem. I recently even bought a cartridge (unopened/unused) on Audiogon and saved a lot of money. Just ask a lot of questions, email back and forth and read all feedback. I did see a pure scam involving an SME 30 for sale in London for $4K, emailed a few times and quickly learned that the seller was bogus. I enjoy reading and contributing to the forums and viewing other people's systems. I've actually learned a lot from Audiogon.
I have sold a limited amount on Audiogon, but all has been positive.
I recently sold a Classe' SSP-25, and my two local used dealers said they didn't want it, as they have not been able to sell them. I posted it on Audiogon, and sold it for the full price, which was a bit higher than I wanted for "breathing room", in 11 hours, to someone in the "hood" (In Seattle..I live in Portland).
I also sold a mint old Dyna FM-3, which had been completely restored, with the same local (un)interest by my dealers, in a mere 4 hours, for what I paid for it two years ago.
Both transactions were Paypal, and went smooth.
Highly recommended!
Mike
I
VinylGuy
I have used Audiogon to buy equipment, audio racks, cd's, cables and power filters all with excellent results. I have yet to deal with anyone (individual or brick and mortar store) that were nothing short of smooth, positive transactions. I use a special email for Audiogon and Ebay, I only pay with a special credit card and I only pay via paypal. Taking these actions makes me comfortable in dealing with Audiogon. It has been a boon to buyers and sellers alike.
Thanks for everyones input!
I've sold a preamp on audiogon before and now have a couple of sets of speakers up there for sale, though I doubt they will garner much interest due to their age. Still, I visit often and browse and helped a friend buy a turntable through the site. I've found for the most part that the individuals are honest hobbyists like us, selling a piece or two here or there to fund the next addition. Or thinning the herd. The dealers on there seem reputable from their ads but I've only communicated with one and he was very open and honest.
Within that context, you can easily learn to spot the sharks coming over from Ebay pretty quickly - they pop up every now and then with descriptions that are just mind-boggling in their praise for whatever they are selling, even if it's the biggest piece of 70s crap ever manufactured. There are also folks who cross advetise Audiogon and Ebay and are honest in their descriptions and dealings.
Steven's comments are dead on: get to know the person with whom you may be dealing.
I've bought and sold on Audiogon and had nothing but good transactions. A lot of the people there are enthusiasts who have no reason to cheat anyone and actually enjoy the trading process. If you look at the feedback ratings of Audiogon users, they are almost always 100% positive- as Steven said, most people are honest.
Ditto. I have bought and sold on Audiogon without any problem. And most people I've dealt with have conservative with item ratings. People value their reputations. There is an ethos on Audiogon. Talk with the person and it's fairly easy to tell when you're dealing with someone who is genuinely into it. I've met some interesting people.
James B.
I think the test of a service like Audiogon, eBay, PayPal, etc. is its dispute resolution. I personally have had an Audiogon experience that wasn't perfect. I filed a dispute as the buyer and Audiogon quickly cancelled it. I'll be a little hesitant to go back...not sure, yet.
OK - Here's my latest Audiogon experience - A seller had an item I wanted - I submitted my offer - The seller then let the offer expire, notifying me that he'd decided not to sell! In the meantime, I missed out on a similar eBay item because my offer was pending on Audiogon!
If a buyer must obligate himself to purchase by making an offer via Audiogon, the seller should likewise be obligated to SELL the item he has advertised! I doubt that I'll be using Audiogon again!
A good sense of humor makes it ALL sound better!
I had the same experience -- maybe it was the same item (KC 4Ag). I made a full price offer, but the seller told me he had decided not to sell. That's the seller's prerogative, I think, but as a matter good manners the non-seller should at least take down the listing This experience was disappointing, but it won't keep me away from Audiogon. There are many great deals to be had...
Actually the item was Kimber KC 8Ag, but the price was incredibly low; perhaps an example of "things that look too good to be true ..."
James B.
I think also as a matter of more than just good manners, a seller should reject an offer as soon as is practical if he has no intent to accept it. My offers have very often received no reply at all, even if for the full amount or very near it. Audiogon has its good points, but sellers' manners wouldn't be at the top of my list. Regardless, it's a good place to sell. Reasonable offers come in quickly.
Personal anecdotes on the internet, for me, are worth very little... and that's all that one sees above. The truth is that Audiogon leaves you unprotected, and the feedback system is NOTHING like eBay's, since Agon requires "acceptance" of negative feedback (or at least did if that has changed now). I have been shopping for items listing for many thousands of dollars, and can't afford to pay and "hope for the best".
Paypal won't cover you on Audiogon like it will on eBay (read the fine print, if you care to).
Audiogon support is curt when they bother replying at all.
I won't use their site for the reasons listed above, though I'm interested in items that they're selling.
As Boom stated above, there are dealer options that take ALL of the risk out, and, after you reach a certain level with this hobby, the few hundred extra dollars are well worth the immense peace of mind that you will receive dealing with a known entity.
Audiogon has always been first-rate to me.
Mike
VinylGuy
Not me.
Perhaps I've been fortunate, as I sell just as much as I buy, but only one time did I have an issue, which was when someone bought a CD player I sold them, and within 10 minutes of delivery, sent me photos showing significant damage. Initially, I was horrified, but then it was suggested by someone I relayed the matter to that it might be a scam and after a lot of consultation with UPS, I concluded it was. It helped that I had photographed the unit using RAW mode on my SLR, so these were untouched photos and that the unit the buyer sent photos of was so completely trashed looking that the unit I sent, which could have been fairly rated a 10, looked like a 5. UPS concluded, after sending an inspector, that the packing was excellent (as all my packaging is) and that this WAS a scam. Besides, I do photography, and there was no way that this person could have done the setup that fast and gotten those photos to be that detailed (even with a lighting setup already in place)without having had a second (trashed unit) waiting to perpetrate his scam. He eventually threatened me with legal action, trying to scare me by saying I'd have to come to New York, but my attorney assured me this was bull. I wrote the guy and told him I didn't believe a word he'd written, but I was aware not to be nasty, just factual.
This story is not guaranteed to calm your concerns, but otherwise, in 9 years of selling, I've never had an issue. I would suggest, however, that you look at 1), the length of time someone has been a member, and see if b), the feedback is from members who themselves have significant feedback (anyone can sell something to themselves once a year and give themselves a good rating: and c), look for purchasers/sellers with a feedback of 200 or higher and have been members for years). I think you'll rarely go wrong. However sometimes someone is a first-time seller, in which case, you must be certain to use Paypal, and make sure their address is verified. And if THAT doesn't work, you MUST use your bank's credit card dispute system. It DOES work.
Other than that ONE time, I've found it excellent, and I'm very comfortable with them.
I've purchased one fairly expensive item which was exactly as described, down to the insignificant nick on the edge of the faceplate.
As noted, a lot of Audiogon sellers are hobbyists looking to make a fair exchange in order to upgrade or thin out their large collection of equipment. A lot of others are dealers looking to unload perfectly fine, but unwanted, inventory.
I agree - always email or contact the seller, ask a few questions, and see what kind of response you get. I think in most cases you can tell who's honest and who's not.
If you use Paypal by way of your CC, you should be fairly well protected.
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