Audio Research REF 5 Line Stage
Elliot Goldman -- Wed, 07/22/2009 - 13:24
I got my first unit in today and just unpacked it and plugged it in.
I got my first unit in today and just unpacked it and plugged it in.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...................What are the quick observations you have noticed between the REF3 and the 5?
I wander if its as quiet as the Ayre KXR. My only fear with tube preamps is the tube wear and the effect on sonics (being so gradual one do not notice).
Sonics on tubes improves with the aging (beginning at 200 hours), until the tube their death (aprox. 2000 hours), noise is permanent in transistors, masked by a fake 'silence'. But I'm talking here about very tube gear as AR and anothers.
Please explain "fake silence".
Don't worry about the tubes in your Audio Research Reference 5 preamp. I've been through several of the Audio Research preamps in the last 30 years. My first was the SP-6C. I'm now using the Reference 3 line stage preamp. I've never noticed any deterioration of the sound in any of these units even though I've never replaced a pre-amp tube. Their preamps are good-sounding and exceptionally reliable. I've also had several Audio Research power amps, and have had a few failures with them that had to be fixed by my dealer, who is excellent. I've used the Reference 300 monoblocks for 10 years. They sound great, still have the original tubes, which can be bias-adjusted individually. My dealer says the Reference 300's are the best power amps Audio Research has ever made, and they are indeed better than any previous models I've owned because they are very user-friendly, great sounding, and so far very reliable. I just got the new Audio Research Reference 2 phono preamp, which I love not only because of the sound, but also because virtually every parameter (load, equalization curve (RIAA, Columbia, Decca), as well has high or low gain level,can be set from the remote. What could be more user-friendly than that?
I think it'll need a very long breakin period. To ask Elliot to answer questions about the sound of the Ref5 isn't appropriate at this time.
Mark
Guys, They claim that full break in takes a whil and all I did yesterday was plug it in and let it reapeat. I did sit down late yesterday bbefore I went home and my initial thouhts are:
1) It is a much quieter than the 3
2) it seems to have a deeeper and even wider soundstage- might be related to noise floor
3) The overall presentation seems to be clearer and at the same time seems to be more liquid with less hard edges on dynamic passages.
Again this was first observations and it only had a couple of hours on it so far.
whats amps you are using with he ref5 pls?
mine is on its way and cant wait....
Bryston 28b SST monos
Bryston 28b SST monos
hows it going with the ref 5 an the 28bsst2... I have 1000k hrs on my pre... Love it... Might get 28bsst2...pls let me know what your hearing...
hmmm not familiar with those...but i am sure they are good.... i cant wait to hook the ref5 to my 610ts....
I don't think you will be disappointed with the REF 5 and certainly 610t's are fabulous amplifiers.
Its getting better by the hour.
E
stop the torture !!!!... i am already trying the fab ref2 phono stage and waiting it to burn in a little...cant wait....
Not turture only joy. It is nice when something meets or exceeds your expectations. I was just listening to the Hadouck Trio "live at FIP" disc I have and it is just plain making me smile.
E
Not turture only joy. It is nice when something meets or exceeds your expectations. I was just listening to the Hadouck Trio "live at FIP" disc I have and it is just plain making me smile.
E
cant wait....i just found out that there is a delay on my ref5 due to color selection ...
adds more to the pain..i have my my whole listening room powers laid out for 3 months....each and every wall socket gets a dedicated line direct from the main line at the entrance of the house seperate from those of the house ... earthing line and neutral all are coming seperate...you sud hear the end result...dead black background and the music emerges from out of nowhere...its spooky.. but ref5 will make a lot of difference i believe...cant wait cant wait cant wait
Nazo,
It sounds like you have done a good job. I do believe that really good power conditioners help even when the ac is done properly as it is done in my store as well.
So you have REF5, 610t's and what else?
You are not in the US correct?
E
hi elliot
i am based in istanbul turkey.. i have ref5 , ref phono2 , ref8 , ref 610t , magico v3, sme 30/2 transparent opus speaker and interconnects...sra ohio xl class underneath the 610ts and finite elemente pagode master reference rack for the audio system...
for home theater.... krell s1000 proc, krell tas amp and rotel stereo amp for driving 7 martin logan motifs... 2 martin logan decent i subs... jvc rs2 projector...stewart film screen .... pioneer laser disc (still works)... sony s500 blu ray player...all cabling transparent reference xlr interconnects and speaker cables (custom lengths)...
on the audio side transparent PIMM power conditioner with PLMM power cords on all the equipment except the conditioners on the power amps...
on home theater side transparent PI8 as a conditioner for everything except the power amps and PLMM power cord for JVC projector..
i have documented the whole projected of building the ac with photos of each stage if you are interested...
Do you know Zeb? He also lives in Turkey.
I met him at CES last year. He also has ARC and Magico gear.
Should be a great sounding audio system you have assembled. NO Blu-ray?
Enjoy the weekend
E
Just one question Eliot...
Is the Ref5 the "best" preamp that you have ever heard? ;)
Steve,
First, I don't want to use that term LOL
It's brand new has less than 20 hours on it so far and I want to let it break in so I can hear its full potential.
If you want to call me sometime next week I will be happy to talk to you about it.
Have a nice weekend.
BTW its really good so far
Elliot
I know you suffer from Erectile Dysfunction and my post was merely to get a rise out of you. You seem to be in everyone's crosshairs recently based on that darn word "BEST"
Have a good weekend too E.
oneobgyn you're funny........thanks for the laugh............elliott............you didn't fall for that one eh!
i know off Zeb but dont know him personally.....but i know off his system...
as for the blu ray i have sony s 500..
Why is everyone so AR minded? I don't think the AR Reference preamp is that good -> it is way overrated. It is of course high quality but is certainly not the best of the bunch. A good solid state design like the Accuphase C-290V or FM Acoustics is way better.
Chris
You heard that somewhere?
Chris -
Thanks for the most amusing comment I've read this week!
Obviously, his ears have never been graced with the thermionic valve.
It’s just absurd, and you see this stuff all the time. It always goes something like:
I think the [insert name of one of the most highly rated products in the world made by one of the world’s top high end manufacturers with an extensive dealer network throughout the U.S. here] is way overrated.
I think the [insert name of obscure product that doesn’t have a single dealer in the U.S. here] is way better.
And the comments are all the more delicious when they are made only a few days after the “worse” product is released, thus rendering it essentially impossible for the poster to have reached an informed opinion regarding the sound of the product.
I smell a "troll!"
You are saying that because you are likely an AR aficionado, so you are quite biased. I was only reporting my own findings. I'm not saying that AR is bad, no, AR is good but the solid state designs I mentioned are better...
Btw, I'm sorry if I have offended you.
Chris
Your comment wasn't offensive at all. It was just silly.
I'll second that motion!
JWalters, you can call it silly, but could you elucidate why you think it is silly? Have you ever heard FM Acoustics FM266 preamp before? If not, then you don't have the right to call it silly!
Chris
Chris -
It is silly from a lot of standpoints. I'll name a few.
1. As mentioned above (by me and others), this is a thread about the Audio Research Ref 5 which just came out. My dealer was one of the first in the US to have it, and I have heard it three times so far. Even though he got his early, my experience with these units is that they need a bit of time to break in. His isn't broken in yet. I very seriously doubt that you have heard a broken in Ref 5 yet so I don't know how you could have formed enough of an opinion to state whether or not it is inferior or not to any other piece of equipment on the planet. It is a bit silly to pre-judge a piece of equipment before you have heard it.
2. The tube versus solid state argument is as old as transistors themselves and I think that continuing to beat that horse - by saying that one of them is categorically the "best" - is silly, but have at it if you would like.
3. Your opening statement was: "Why is everyone so AR minded? ....A good solid state design like the ... FM Acoustics is way better." Then you ask if I have heard the FM Acoustics product. I made this point before, but I'll make it again. Most readers of TAS are in the US and many readers of these forums are in the US as well. AR is one of the oldest high end companies in the US with scores of dealers throughout the country where people can go and hear their products. The high end publications in the US and the UK have consistently reviewed the AR Reference products very favorably - as among the best available in the world. People listen to the various products and buy what they think is best. Given those facts, is it really unclear to you why some people on these forums are "AR minded" (your words, not mine - I only own one piece of AR gear). Why is this mysterious?
Your question can also be read to ask: "Why aren't more people FM Acoustics minded, since FM Acoustics is better." In response to your question, no, I have never heard an FM Acoustics product but, of course, I never said that one product was better than the other one (you're the one that did that). An FM Acoustics preamp might be fantastic but tell me, do they have any dealers in the US?
It's kind of like me telling you that I don't know why you are so "FM Acoustics minded" because this preamp made on my home world of Ganymede and only available for listening to in the Ganymede atmosphere is so much better than any FM Acoustics preamp. You probably wouldn't find such a comment helpful (especially if I had never heard the FM Acoustics product, like you have not heard the Ref 5). You might even find it a little silly.
Chris, Your comment about the new, just released ARC Reference 5 preamp - is silly from the following viewpoints: It is just as unlikely that you have heard this preamp as it is that JWalters has heard the FM Acoustics FM266 preamp. So how do you know that it is overrated and that the Accuphase and the FM Acoustics are better? In fact, you made a general statement that good solid state designs are better - based on what - when you haven't even heard the ARC Ref 5? Hopefully you have at least auditioned in your own system the ARC Ref 3 preamp so that you have some basis for your personal preference for the FM Acoustics, but again, you don't even know how the new Ref 5 compares to the previous Ref 3. Once you have done a good home audition of the Ref 5 compared to the FM Acoustics then please come back and describe the sonic differences between the 2 preamps - then you will at least have some measure of credability to back up your statements.
Arnie, now you make some good points here. I personally haven't heard the ARC REF 5 yet. but I have heard the REF 3. Ok, I'm not very politically correct here to comment about the REF 5, in that case it is a bit silly and I apologize. But it is also silly to regard my comments as "troll" or something that is totally nonsense while you haven't the smallest clue of how the solid state preamps I mentioned earlier sound. At least I have heard the REF 3 (and both the solid state preamps).
Chris
Chris,
I am surprised that everyone missed the one thing that was truly "silly" in your original post. You commented on a ARC Ref 5 comment trail "Why is everyone so AR minded?", it's like going into an Italian restaurant and asking why everything on the menu is Italian! WHAT ELSE WOULD IT BE? By the way If any product was truly universally BEST, with proper marketing and distribution it would put the competition out of business. Fortunately we aren't universally similar in our taste "I don't like Starbucks coffee and shouldn't be expected to just because some think it's the best"
you guys are smoking funny stuff...first of all...no pre amp is GREAT on it own... take ref3 for example..its a gr8 sounding pre amp with ARC line...try to hook it with KRELL EVO series...the end result is terrible...does this mean that KRELL is BAD? hell no...does this mean that REF3 is bad? HELL NO!.... the fact of the matter no single component is good or bad for that matter on its own...its the combination of things...FM acoustics is a raved product.... i have never heard it....but may be if i hear it with my system which is all ARC ref series it might just sound horrible and i am just speculating....but does that mean that FM ACoustics is BAD? IMHO no friggin way.... is ARC REF5 a bad pre amp when it doesnt sing as it sud do i a different system? HELL NO....so to put into perspective...it isnt only enough to hear a component...YOU NEED TO HEAR IT ON YOUR OWN SET UP AND DECIDE... otherwise all you guys are talking horse chit!....
thats all he wrote....
Hi to all!
I do not agree with nazo as far as Krell Evo-ARC Ref 3 combination concerned. With the help of cables(cords,interconnects, speakercable..) there is no bad sounding Krell Evo-ARC combo. as long as you have a really good front end (20k +) and a speaker(15-20k range)
Rest of the job is buying music that's it.( I couldn't find a second use for audio gear)
There is a guy who listen music in order to experience with different equipments.......
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vopin&1178405064
Having listened to the Ref 5, I expect that this thread will turn extremely interesting after people have actually heard the unit.
So why don't you chime in with your preliminary thoughts regarding a less than broken- in machine. How is it different than the Ref3. I say the thread has turned extremely interesting and we welcome your posts
I've been at this "hobby" for a long time and I have never heard a component so completely transform a system.
I don't have time to go into detail right now but, jumping to my personal conclusion, tomorrow my dealer will be ordering one for me (for September delivery, I am told).
The Ref 5 was, to my ears, superior in every way to the Ref 3, and the Ref 3 was, to my ears, a wonderful product. To paraphrase something that someone (maybe Harry Pearson) said recently, sometimes a product has to come along and shake up the existing paradigm to show what is possible - to show how far the state of the art can be advanced. Until then, we really don't know what we are missing. I have heard a lot of preamps, but when listening to the Ref 5, I kept saying "I didn't know a preamp could do THAT..."
Do WhaT?
You put forth great hyperbole and have said absolutely nothing about the product. To me your posts are comparable to dazzdaz but from the other side of the argument. Please put up or shut up.I owned a Ref3 as well and loved it. Never thought there could be a better preamp. I went in a different direction however and bought the new Lamm LL1 Signature which is a dual mono 4 chassis preamp. I love it. I could gush with all of the hyperbole that you put forward but I won't as this is a thread about the Ref5 so why don't you put all of your adjectives aside and tell us why you said "I didn't know a preamp could do THAT..."
The thread is about the Ref 5. If you want to talk about the virtues of FM acoustics start a thread about it. There can be no comparison for most of us since we have no access to the product. That is not a statement of quality or anything else it is just one of reality. I have no idea why it is not available here and don't really care it just isn't.
I also believe that the pricing of said unit is way above the REF 5. The REF 5 in todays market is "affordable" It is only 2k more than a REF 3 which is now almost 5 years old.
I am a fighter but this threads agruement makes little sense.
First observation_
Ref 5 is significantly quieter than a REF 3. This allows you to hear much more into the music. The soundstage is deeper and wider and there is much more space within the stage. Instruments and players are more distinct and are seperated. THe total character of the preamp is clearer but it does not a bright or a white color to it. It seems at first blush to be clearer and yet smoother at the same time.
I have about 40-50 hours on mine.
My guess is the if you have a ref3 you will want to give this a listen <weg>
Thanks Elliot
so it is quieter, clearer and with a deeper and wider soundstage. Would these be from a lower noise floor offered by the preamp? Are the same number and complement of tubes present?
Steve,
The unit is a lot quieter, they claim 3db. Different board layout, sigle all horizontal same tube compliment as REF2 phono and CD-8.
5-6h30,1-6550.
Quieter, more gain.
I am not sure yet since I don't have that many hours and I have ben busy the last few days ( HOORAY) but I believe it is more explosive as well. I mean that the dynamics seem better, faster and with more impact. THis is my impression not 100 percent sure
Thanks again Elliot
IMO the gush hype offered by JWalters is tantamount to nothing
Guess you missed the part where I said "I don't have time to go into detail right now..." First sentence, second paragraph. It is still there, if you want to go back and take a look.
Without using any adjectives, I can tell you that the ARC Reference 5 weighs 30.4 pounds. It is 19" wide, by 7" high, by 15.5" deep. Its handles extend 1.5" forward of the front panel. It has a 104 step volume control. Maybe that was helpful to you.
Hope you enjoy your Lamms. They are, of course, almost 4 times the cost of the Ref 5. God bless you.
Thanks for your incitefullness. God bless you too. Now I know volumes as to what you heard and what it is that you "didn't know a preamp did that"
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