Amp matching for Quad ESLs
hshrader -- Wed, 05/28/2008 - 21:08
In the recent edition of TAS, Jim Hannon says that matching an amp to the Quad ELS is critical. In a past edition of TAS, Dick Osher touches on Amp matching to a Quad in a side bar --- he indicates that because of the unique load the ESL shows the amps, some amps are better suited at driving the speaker. Several years ago HP awarded a Golder Ear aware for the Innersound Amp that was effectively designed for electrostatic speakers saying it might have just slighted increased the dynamic range of his ESL. Jon Valin is reviewing the current ESLs now and no doubt is using different amps to better understand what works best with the speakers. I have also seen raves about 20watt amps and 400 watt amps working with the Quads. Despite these references, I feel that there has been little discussion about what is meant with Amp matching for Quad ESLs.
Are the writers suggesting that a family of amps that share a common topology are better suited for ESLs. Or, that the ESLs actually are so transparent that perhaps some amps actually do sound better with them despite how they might be designed to interact with a speaker (reactive load or other). Here I am suggesting that quality of design is distinct from philosophy of design. (Perhaps this is a leap of faith!)
I would be interested in better understanding what Jim, Dick and others mean when they suggest amp matching is especially important with Quad ESLs.
Hans
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No worries. Thanks for the info. Your years of experience really is helpful and cuts lots of pain of system matching on our part. I downloaded and bought all the reviews of the components you recommended and mentioned. Read quite a few of them also. Seems like McIntosh Gear works well with Quads. Which amp is your reference amp? Also your reference cables (speaker and Interconnect) with the Quads? I Know you mentioned both in some of the reviews, Ive got stacks of papers and like 40 magazines here....I forget what it was, was it the MC402 and kimber cable?. Im looking into SimAudio Moon Evolution Supernova CD player...any thoughts? I read your review of the Andromedia, its out of my league. HP reviewd the Lector CDP seven tubed CD player. Is that too much tubed stuff? also seems like his recommendations work well with the most expensive state of the art stuff. I went for a listen to the Grand Veenas, no offence to him they weren't to my taste. I read both the TAS and stereophile reviews on the Evolution CD player But they were not tested on Quads. Would like to know your thoughts/assumptions on how this player might fair with the 2905's. Many reviewers describe CD players with different characters, example on the cooler side or the warmer side, etc. When reading these reviews specifically relating the the 2905's what kind of players should I be looking at as a good match? One other question: is matching the Quads with the right Amp the most critical? or does the pre-amp matching or CD-player matching also hold a significant or equal weight ie. a deal maker or deal breaker in the entire system. Everyone keeps mentioning "that the right equipment match is critical" BUT where is it the most important match in the chain? I have narrowed down most of my choices but still confused regarding the significant weight all these things hold. My main source of info is you. I don't want to go to a dealer until I am down to very few final components. They don't want to help and want us to buy immediately on the spot whatever they sell. Not a good experience so far.
AAnwar wrote:I don't want to go to a dealer until I am down to very few final components. They don't want to help and want us to buy immediately on the spot whatever they sell. Not a good experience so far.
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I feel I must put my $0.02 in here. Not all dealers are that bad. My local dealer (The Hifi Attic in Vernon) is very low pressure. I'm in the market for a new pair of speakers, and have been to their store several times over the past few months. Apart from a 1m length of Nordost Blue Heaven interconnect I bought a few years ago, I've not spent a dime there (yet). Despite all this, they've lent me several items, including a pair of Martin Logan Vantages, without asking for a penny.
I'm just about ready to place my speaker order, and because of how they've treated me, The Hifi Attic is where I'll be spending my hard-earned cash.
Moral of the story: if you can, find another dealer. There are good ones out there! (But I agree with you narrowing down your choices using reviews first.)
Back to our regular programming...
HI , I agree with PS to buy the best speaker (i.e 2905) and spend the rest of the money on NADs.
I did just that and very satisfied with the decision..
But , first , some intros.. my name is Antono , from Jakarta , Indonesia , I have read TAS and other mags regularly for about
20 years.. some of the the items I have ever owned and quite impressed with , are Linn Lingo ittok , Basis gold debut + graham , CD3 , Classic 120 , Apogee mini grand , Totem 1 , ESL 63 , Hovland pre and power , Valhallas ..
In my country live music performances are rare , especially orchestral music which I like ( I listen to orchestral soundtracks , jazz and vocals , I prefer acoustic music )
I also wish to express my deepest gratitude to You Writers ( in random order HP , RH , JV , REG , SS , PS , AHC , MC , MF , KK , RG and many others I cannot mention which come and go thru all these years ) that have shared your experiences and knowledge to us , as we really rely on your writings to know how a certain items perform as you review them and compare them to live music performances that you attend regularly.
It's the miracle of the WWW that allow us readers to talk with you personally although indirectly thru this forum..
I just started buying equipments again from zero.. and are using NAD 521BEE CD , 320BEE and 2905 ,
I buy the 2905 , wishing it will help me to be able to hear and justify every upgrade I do in the future.
As of right now I am considering to buy Valhalla speaker cables , which I think some of you will think illogical ,
but the reason is I was offered a used one but like new with a tempting price.
I am also thinking of buying a Thor mains distribution system..
Any comments here Dear Writers?
thank you again ,
antono
This is a helpful discussion, even if it does not lead to conclusive results. I have just found it, and would like to add my own experience.
First however I must thank Paul Seydor. Years ago, he was very kind in answering my emails and my own dilemmas.
Following his reviews of both the 989 Quads and the Innersound amp I bought, and lived with them a number of years, happily.
But as things progressed I bought new gear from Jeff Rowland, their Synergy IIi preamp, the Cadence phono, and their 112 amplifier. Their amp was brilliant in many ways with the 989's - tight bass, pin sharp focus and staging, and total silence. But simply put, too brilliant in the upper reaches, and finally two much of a good thing on long sessions. Its clarity denuded the atmosphere of recordings.
Then came the famous Marantz 9 monoblocks with 70 watts ultralinear. What a change! Spacious, atmospheric, enveloping and with nos Mullard EL34's, sublime. On large scale orchestral the dynamics were good but diffuse. And on going back to the Innersound I was seeing what I was missing in detail and transparensy. One can never get it all....
Well, there are two recent changes to my system that have brought me closer to both: the excellent, specific, qualities of those utterly transistor, and utterly tube amplifiers.
Enter the North Star Design mono amps from the Italian Giuseppe Rampino.
They are transistor 100 watt mono amps that operate up to 10 watts in class A, have huge toroidal transformers, and have the smoothest, most balanced and composed control of the Quads.
Exceptional clarity, delicasy, and micro dynamics bring out the very strengths of the Quads, the inner richness of voices and orchestral music.
They seem to combine what is best of both the Innersound and the Marantz 9, without ever being rough or sweet. The undercurrents of sound ebb and flow in the most convincing way, while crescendos startle in immediacy and power.
I guess it is obvious that I regard the combination of the 989's and the North Star monos a wonderful and perfect marriage for the Quads. It would be very enlightening to have Paul Seydor, or John Valin test them and see things from their perspective.
The second trasformation has come from the upgrade to Synergistic Research Tesla cables. Neil Gader has tooted them in TAS. The delineation of the full spectrum of sound was never so clear and substantial. And in this combination they added richness and detail to further illustrate what these amps are capable of.
I have some ESL-57's with Wayne Picquet's protection PCB's (and his HT pcb, and treble panels rebuilt by him...)
I have used a Dynaco Stereo 70 to good effect, a unit with stock topology but some nicer parts in it (MIT Musicaps, Multicaps and so on) - and for the $200 I paid for the amp, a great choice.
I also have an AMC CVT 2030 which is a class A, hybrid (MOSFET driver, EL34 output) amp, and this sounds REALLY nice on the Quads, better than many more expensive tube amps (Marantz 9, various C-J, Quad, 50 watt Quicksilver, etc) that I've tried. True, it doesn't come with the high price tag that many audiophiles require- I got it for $250 on eBay. I suspect that the price will cause many audiophiles to scoff, but you really should give this a listen.
While these two tube amps sound quite good, even on the ESL-57's more power can lead to better sound. I also use my ESL-57's with a pair of Class-A Monarchy SM-70 Pro's. These are fine sounding amps on the ESL's and can be had for $1000 a pair when Monarchy runs a "sale."
Is the Quad ESL-988 sufficiently reactive that the Monarchy SM-70 is unsuitable?
Thanks!
I am searching for an amplifier for my ESL-57's.
The owner's manual says that:
"Other amplifiers if they are properly regulated (not more than 33 peak volts with any load) are unlikely to cause damage to the loudspeaker..."
I regret having slept through Physics when we did Ohm's law, but from what I have garnered on the web.
Voltage = the square root of Watts times Ohms
That voltage would be RMS.
Peak voltage = RMS * square root of 2
So 60 watts into 8 ohms = 21.9 RMS and 30.9 peak voltage.
So any amp under 60 watts is OK ?
Has anyone tired the Balanced Audio Technology VK 55se or VK 75se tubed amplifiers with Quad 2905? Also any one tried any other Air Tight Amps with 2905's other than ATM 3 in Mr. Valin's review? would be nice to know from those who have tested these!
Question for MR. JIM HANNON: What are the Air tight amplifiers that you recommend for the Quads 2905, Other than the ATM3? Also Any chance of you guys reviewing the Quad II Eighty Amps in TAS?
I use Quad ESL63's and use an Audio Synthesis Passion passive pre-amp and EAR 509 MkII 100w valve monoblocks (Designed and built by the great Tim De Paravacini) to drive them, with van Den Hul `The First Ulimate' interconnects and Van Den Hul Revelation speaker cables.I have found that using the 4ohm taps on the EAR's gives a better result than the 8ohm. To my ears, this setup betters pretty much every other system I've heard over the years, being very natural, dynamic and transparent to the source. Any slight change to source components can easily be heard, indicating the `see-through' quality of the amps and speakers. Although the passive preamp obviously results in a lower volume than would be obtained from an active unit, the sound quality more than makes up for this and there is still more than enough volume for my 18ft x 16ft room. I have found Audio Synthesis products to be superb and very good value for money (i also use their Passion phono stage, Dax Discrete Variable DAC/preamp and Transcend CD/SACD/DVD-A transport which all sound excellent). Although the EAR amps are over £6000 new these days, a 2nd-hand pair (they don't seem to come up for sale too often, but can be found with some patience) can be bought for around £2000 or so. If more power is required then there are the 549 200w monoblocks, based on the same design as the 509 amps, but I have hardly ever seen these come up for sale 2nd hand. Some early reviews of the ESL63's were conducted with the 509 amps and they, too, found them to be a great match. Although being valve amps, the 509's seem to have the better qualities of transistors too i.e. tight but tuneful bass, with the natural and dynamic qualities of valves. A couple of dealers who heard my 509's when I took them along to audition other bits of kit were very impressed with what they heard. One said they'd never heard the Quads go so deep in the bass and the other comented on how `transistor-like' the bass was with them. In fact, I seem to remember reading that just to demonstrate how important the design of an amplifier is, as opposed to whether it uses vales or transistors, Tim De Paravacini made a transistor equivalent of the 509 amp and the 2 amps sounded and performed identically,as witnessed by listeners.
Earlier this year, I also briefly heard a pair of ESL57's which had been completely rebuilt by One Thing Audio at Coventry, which they drove with a (modified) Quad 909 amplifier and was quite stunned at the results. No lack of volume,bass and dynamics whatsover.
I hope this information proves to be of some help to someone.
This is for Jonathan in particular. I have a chance to get a pair of ATM3's for $8600. to match with my Quad 2905's. Should I go for it? I've never heard the amps before, but I suppose I could always sell them if it came to that.
As far as you're concerned, it's the best match that you have heard? A match made in heaven?
Thats a good price. Are you buying used or demo? how old is the unit? or is it from a dealer? I thought this amp was around $15K????
It's used from a dealer. I'm not sure if it's a demo or what. It retails for 17k., so half price.
Im also looking into this amp for the 2905's. The amp is a 20 year old design which is great that it sounds so good that even now its amazing. My concern would be with a 20 year old unit. Things do wear out over 20 years. Also how has the amp been handled and transported, under what conditions has it been driven, have there been any repairs done? any tube changes? Its hard to even keep track of these things if its 10+ years old. Is there a warranty on the used unit? any scratches on it? $9K is still a lot of money, but a steal if the unit has been kept really well. Although in this economy how these guys sell this thing for $17K amazes me. I guess one purchase would take care of things for a long time for them...lol It does not cost $17K to build this thing, you can buy a New Toyota Camary also from Japan for that much and look at how much engineering and effort goes into that. (I know, audio is not about money but sound quality!)
On a side note if a very old ATM3 has been mishandled and repaired and I only wanted to spend up to $9K I would look into a NEW Quad II Eighty amp which many experts at CES 2008 thought made the 2905's a candidate for the best of the show. Not many ATM3 owners participate in these forums. Also I havent heard much from people who specifically have this combo 2905-ATM3. Many dealers also don't even have this amp for demo saying that it has to be ordered new and takes several weeks to get it. JV certainly thinks its awsome. Although in his communication with me he thought that a good solid state amp will handle the 2905's Treble a little better...whatever that means... At $17K I would like an amp to handle anything amazingly on the 2905's. In the recent TAS issue JV also thinks that Odyssy audio Khartago $1000amp sounds nearly as good as a $40K solutions amplifier(the best amp ever according to him)......He is all over the place with these things. Before an audio research, solutions, magico is even released or sent to his home for audition he starts praising them on forums and reviews of other products in the magazine. If you can Audition first with your top choices then thats best, but his credibility gets more and more tainted over the years. You wont be too happy if 2 issues down the line JV says there is a $1500 amp that sounds about the same as a $20K amp on the Quads to his ears and in his room. Watch out for recommendations from JV and CM both are all over the place. I have no doubt in that the products they recommend are great, but its your hard earned money and your taste, hear it yourself first! Something being super cheap or super expensive doesn't automatically mean that its the best and thats the only option.
In days of yore when I worked in Audio... and sold the ESL63's I heard them matched up beautifully with then new Quad 303 & 405's (much underrated the 405 - and with upgrades available now to its op amps and capacitor refresh it can apparently be made to sound much better than new).
At the time it also sounded great with the Revox amps (B242 power amp and B251 integrated).
Later I owned a set of 63's and a set of 989's which I heard paired up with my Quad 606's, 405's, I also tried out a range of digital T-amps with them (suprising little things, but no match for the 606's).
As I no longer work in audio my access to toys to audition is limited.... but years of listening convinced me of the qualities of the Quad current dumping family - and I have stuck with them..... brief forays into other amps have been non conclusive - I have yet to find something within a similar price range that can match a 606/707/909 ..... and am planning to upgrade my 606's to see what can be achieved with renewing its now 20 year old capacitors.....
With my ESL57's I have run them with 303's (good), 405's (ok), ADCOM 555 (not at all OK and dangerous for the panels!) - also a number of basic solid state amps (most sounded terrible) - I have a vague recollection of a NAD 2025 being OK if not driven hard.... but it is many years ago!
I have heard the Musical Fidelity amps can sound great with the Quads, and that the Michelle amps are also a fantastic combo - but I've not been able to find those amps on the used market at a reasonable price..... so that is an exercise for the future.
Hope you find your audio nirvana - best of luck
David
I'm a casual hobbyist listening to Folk/Rock (lyle lovett, rem, beatles, u2, pearl jam) with vocal emphasis.
i've used two wildly different amps with my QUAD 2805:
1) Cambridge audio 840e/w pre & amp combo. They sounded too bright for my tastes.
so i switched to the Quad II/forty tube amp with the QC24 Pre. GLORY! smooth, detailed and lovely.
i didn't audition a bunch of other amps, but the Quad on Quad setup was a nice combo of value and sound.
Regarding amps for the Quad 57's, there are a couple of issues that will make different amps sound different. One is the stability it has when driving the capacitative load (about 2 ohms at 20KHz); the other is the way it handles the very high frequency AM radio it picks up over the speaker cables. Remember the amp is not a linear device around the MHz region, and the speaker cables *will* pick up AM radio and similar frequencies. Given the reactive load, just what a particular amp will do is quite unpredictable. If it's flailing about at 1MHz the signal in the audio range will be significantly affected.
I used a Naim 160 with a pair of 57's for many years most satisfactorily. Although I still have that, I now use a new supernait with the 2805's. I notice that there's a lot of difference between listing to CDs versus records with this pair, the records (Linn Sondek with a Decca Gold!) sound sweet and smooth, whereas the cd's (from a Naim 5i I think it is) sound comparatively hard.
How about Conrad Johnson's CT5 preamplifier and LP70S amplifier for use with the Quad 2805?