Amp for Martin Logan Vantages
default -- Thu, 10/15/2009 - 09:42
Hi everyone,
This is my first post here. I need help!! I am getting desperate :)
I am struggling to find a match for my Marton Logan Vantage speakers (and my ears…). “My ears” is obviously the issue here :)
My current system is the following:
CD Player: Marantz SA-7S1
Pre-amp: Arcam AV9
Power amp: Primare A30.5
Cables: Chord Signature
The issue is that the sound is harsh/edgy and unrefined. I guess it is not much of a surprise giving that the amps are for AV, not stereo sound. I would like to retain the ability to have an integrated (or semi-integrated) stereo and AV system. I spend equal amount of time watching films/music dvds than listening to stereo sound.
So, I have been looking for ways to find that additional (or replacement) amp to solve my problems.
Amps I have listened to (at home, over a few days):
(1) Krell S300i - not too impressed, has power, lacks detail, has the ability to connect cpd directly and also connect AV9 and switch to “power amp” if I want to watch a movie. However, I just was not sure that it is my solution.
(2) Audio Research DSi200 (new integrated). I was fortunate to audition the first DSi200 in the UK at home. I ran it in for 48 hours (they say it needs 600 hours run in time!!). It sounds great, especially with Siltech XLR and Siltech cables - pulls you into the music, detailed, large sound stage, could maybe do with a bit more rhythm and slam. Also benefit that you can run the AV system though it (like the Krell). Almost too tame for me.
(3) Plinius Hiato – very powerfull, detailed, but rough, no finesse. Could work well with other types of speakers, not for me.
(4) GamuT DI150 - more refined than Plinius, beautifull midrange, a bit harsh at the top end (violins makes you cringe) and bass is a bit plumpy. Lots of detail, but I know it is going to tire me in the long run.
(5) Pathos Cinema X – Some nice features, connect cd player directly and also Arcam AV9 into 5 channels. Good power, reasonable mid range, sometimes a bit harsh, and tops are grainy. Female vocals is just not as clear as any of the above amplifiers. Could be my Chord cabels in this case.
Overall the ARC is the best so far, if it was just a bit more rhythmic, I guess…. My budget is ₤5000 (around $6000). Any advice to help me out of my predicament?
Thanks
Andre
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I believe your interests would be served to look at the Moon line of products from SimAudio. First of all, the equipment sounds great. The i-1 series is an integrated as is the i-3 the difference is the power. They come from a highend rather than consumer background. It is great sounding gear. The Moon series is completely within your price range. You may find your needs covered for less. The CD players offered by the company are also absoulutely great. In fact the TAS named the I-1 the best new integrated of the Year. The product build quality is second to none and they have a better guarantee policy than everyone else in the industry.
I heard them yesterday with the purity from Martin Logan and the 50 Watt i-1 never broke a sweat. at a $1,500 you can fill a good sized room with no problem with the smaller system. The highs are sweet, the mids are very live. I would consider buying the matching CD-player the CD-1. If you are concerned about power then purchase the i-3. It doubles down at 4 olms to 250 Watts per Channel.
http://www.simaudio.com/
Darius
Have you tried any of the Musical Fidelity gear? I have auditioned my Vantages on the A5.5 amplifier and it sounds great. The speaker was a little punchy in the midrange, but the high end of the speaker displayed a lot of smooth finesse. Or if you want a warmer midrange, try one of their tube integrateds...regardless of what the numbers say, the MF gear has the power. Good Luck!
I own several different electrostatic speakers, including the Vantages and I have had at least a dozen different amps at my house during my journey to find the best amp for my system. If you go SS, make sure you get a lot of power, as they will sound harsh. I respectfully disagree with both Musical Fidelity and Sim Audio choices, unless you get the higher tier separates with a lot of power. If you go with tubes, they will not be harsh, but you will give up bass and dynamics (seems like you draw the same conclusion from your statement about arc).
Have you tried the BAT integrated? I believe it combines a tubed pre and ss amp. You can probably search the ML fan site for more information. But the ss amp and tubed pre seems to be the most common pattern for Logan owners.
Bryston may be another option if you like the analytic sonic signature.
A-S Lover,
thanks for your reply (and everybody else's). I am with you on this. I have not heard a SS amp that works for me, apart from the ARC DSi200 (which I understand is more of a digital amp) that works OK, I have it at my house right now. I prefer it above all the rest so far, but it is not perfect. There is a loss of separation of instruments and it also lacks a bit of dynamics, not too bad on that through. The instruments on the DSi all tend to "sit in the middle", as if the whole band is standing in a row. I dont like an analytical sonic nature either, so the Brystons are out for me. The only SS amps that I have not heard and still wonder about are the BATs and Mark Levinsons. What is your experience with Mark Levinson? I can get a new 431 (200W @8ohm) for a decent price and a good 2nd hand 380. I might struggle to audition though.
I wonder if I should not leave the world of Electrostatics and go back to boxes......
Cheers!!
Andre
Personally, I hate Mark Levinson. If you don't like the analytic sound, you may not also.
Fremer gets paid to write about it, and he summarizes it best comparing an Ayre v1 to Levinson:
From disc to disc, so it went: The Levinson excelled at controlling the presentation, focusing the picture, and achieving a sense of seamless sonic stability, though in a somewhat cool and reserved way. The Ayre scored points with a rich, palpable, three-dimensional midrange that seemed to reach out to, grab, and draw me into the emotional center of the music. The Levinson went for the head, the Ayre for the heart. Despite its name, the Levinson was the WASPier-sounding amp, the Ayre more the hand-gesturing Jewish- or Italian-sounding amp.
Two great products. Two different sounds. One offensive analogy.
Do try Ayre v1, Cj Premier 350 (if you can find one), BAT, Sanders (free 30 day trial), and Pass. They are SS but don't sound like SS. If you get the right amp, the Vantages are truly hard to beat at their price point against anything out there.
thanks again,
I will be on the look-out for BAT (the others might not be that available in the UK or above my price point). Do you know the VK-200? Can get a good 2nd hand one. Have to say, the ARC DSi200 sounding better now after i reduced the "toe-in" a bit, much better separation of instruments :)
Andre,
Good to hear the ARC is working out better. Room and placement always seem to be the greatest challenges in our hobby. (Check out Jim Smiths' book on placement - Get Better Sound.)
I have heard several BAT pieces in my system and one of the preamps that I own is a BAT. There is definitely superb synergy between BAT and Logan, and all of the pieces are designed by the same guy, Victor K. I have not heard the vk-200, but I would not be surprised if someone on the ML fan site has. Because it is a great concentration of owners of one brand, you may want to throw that question out there.
Another option is to check audiogon. One dealer, seems like, has broken his relationship with BAT and has flooded the used market with his inventory. Not sure how involved this is, but I wonder what it would take to convert an American piece to function effectively in the UK.
Good Luck
I use Vantage with simaudio with great result.
That being said, have you tried with another source, a better source than the maranz? I wouldn't be surprise that your problem from from your source. Your amp amplifies only what's feedint it.
The Marantz?!? mmmm, this is the top of the range player from Marantz, very smooth, no sibilance, I am pretty sure the problem is not there. You don't make any recommendation, what source would you recommend?
The "problem" is probably my ears. Then again, I listened to a live concert of Vivaldi's Four Season in an old church in Venice last week-end and, surpise, surprise, no edge, no harshness, no sibilance, no artificial dynamics. So, I have decided to buy the ARC DSi 200. I listened to it again after further burn in, and it is the best I have heard (my taste) - enjoyable, natural, etc. I am sure you get that in better formal, but problaby not for under ₤5000 (BAT or Pass Labs might be better, but there is no way for me to audition these amps unless I am willing to go to extreme difficulty.)
Thanks for the response though.
Andre
I belive you can use any Moon product from the i-3 upwards and will be very happy.
Dariius
Hi, thanks for all the advice. I decided to go with the ARC DSi200. I have it for 10 days now and it is still burning in. ARC says it takes up to 600 hours to fully burn in!! It is still not as dynamic and holographic as I remember the Demo unit I had at home, but it is getting there :) There are potentially better amps (for my ears) out there for the same type of money, but it was too difficult for me to audition them as thoroughly as I was able to do with the ARC (my dealer allow me to keep the demo unit at my house for a week). So, I am happy with my choice.
Regards
Andre
Andre Curious to hear your updates on the DSi200 now that you have passed the 600hr mark. I noticed a significant "change" in mine at the 300hr point; it "relaxed" and "fleshed out" a good bit more... Bright/thin sounding recordings had more natural body and no longer forced me to "turn the volume down" to make them palletable. I am looking forward to the 600hr mark in the break in to be confident it has settled in. But so far this amp is a real stunner ~ easily outperforming most of the $6k usd integrateds or pre/pwr combos I have heard.
PS: After 8yr relationship with arc gear, I strongly recommend NOT tweaking it with fancy cones, resonance control weights/gadgets, power cords (the stock one is really really good ~ arc designs their gear with it in mind as "part" of the circuitry), etc ~ simply sit it on a sturdy rack and let it play (you will find it a good bit more rhythmic/paceful that way... All the other seems to only "slow it down"...
Happy listening
COD, The amp improved more and more, but it is difficult to say when you can't really hear improvements any more as it is probably a curve reaching into deminishing returns :) I am still very happy with it though. I always want my hi-fi to attempt to give me live music experiences over a wide range of music genres (as I listen to almost all defined genres) as apposed to so-called ""accurate" (read clinical) or dynamic (classical music dynamic??) experiences. I saw Cat Stevens and the London Philharmonic Orchestra perform Beethoven's 9th in December, and I think my current system brings me closer to what I heard there than anything else I heard for this kind of money (but, as stated before, I have not heard some of the claimed best - e.g. Pass Labs, and so on).
Interesting comment about the power cable. I found that a higher quality cable = Harmonic - gave me a little bit more depth and "holographics" and also a bit of bass weight and I found that balance an improvement. I would be interested to hear wether you stick to you same assessment of ARC equipment if you try a better power chord. All the best :)
Andrie
Sanders Sound makes ESL amps-specifically to drive stats. You should give me a listen. I love stats and have not heard a box speaker that gives me the same (or better) level of transparance (I have heard 800D, Magico Minis, Dyn C4 and Saphires, amongst others).
Just a thought. Try fixing your room first. I have found that MLs are more sensitive than most to room treatment. I bet with at little strategic dampening, such as behind the speaker, the floor and the ceiling, if possible, your speakers will sound much better. Perhaps not enough to stop you from shopping for a new one but, from a much better baseline. I have heard your speakers in a large hard surfaced room and your assesssment of the sound is the same as mine. I have some very average Snell xa1900s in my theater that has a full ASC treatment and they sound great when driven by the Nuforce Ref 9 v1's
I am looking forward to purchase the ARC intergrated(saving-up for), I have a SONY 5400ES player W/kimber silver balanced(1/2m.)cable for connection. This will be my LAST system. Your comments on the ARC locked in my choice. Thank you!