AC Power Cord
Tom Martin -- Sat, 04/01/2006 - 07:05
Can anyone explain why an upgraded power cord would make a difference?
Can anyone explain why an upgraded power cord would make a difference?
Sorry, I can't.
But I can say that I tried some Nordost Valhalla power cables in my system and was stunned at the difference. Changing just the cable on my TriVista DAC 21, smoothed the highs out noticeably, relaxed the digital sound, and moved it closer to analog. Changing the power chords on my preamp and power amps continued to close the gap between analog and digital.
I'm ruined because there's no way I can afford the Valhalla chords, interconnects, or speaker cables. Guess I'll try playing the lottery.
Can anyone suggest some power chords that produce a similar effect that don't cost more than my electronics?
My only expierence with nordost was with a phono cable(Tyr?) which I found to be too bright in my system. It had great detail but lacked body big time. With power chords I have a mix of Yamamurra and JPS. I have found that the JPS A/C chords make rather a big difference. As well the digital one they make is just great on my Meridian G08. As for the argument as to whether power chords mak any difference at all: just listen!
Apparently Kimber has some expensive, but much less expensive than Nordost Valhalla, power cables that are very very good. But I still don't understand how this is possible!
These cords are indeed scary good. One friend likened the difference to rewiring the AC and adding a dedicated 40amp circuit directly to the listening room. These cords don't alter the sound in terms of tonal balance but they lower the noise floor and enhance imaging and dimensionality and soundstage by a wide margin. The effect was completely unexpected. It was then fully corroborated by a friend who later tried them out on his system. I didn't prompt him in the slightest and he had the identical response.
Neil Gader
Neil Gader Associate Editor The Absolute Sound
Neil, are you referring to the Nordost or Kimber power chords?
Jim,
Actually I was referring to the big green Kimber Palladian-I think PK10 is the designation. I haven't had the opportunity to hear the Nordost. I also like the Virtual Dynamic cords although they are so unweildy that if you're not careful you can pop the plug right out of the outlet. the Kimber and the VD are certainly different but they each make it difficult to go back to stock.
Neil
Neil Gader Associate Editor The Absolute Sound
Check out my review of the Shunyata Research AC cables and Hydra-8 conditioner in Issue 193 of The Absolute Sound (it mails at the end of June). The review discusses the question of how a few feet of special AC cable at the end of a miles-long AC transmission system can affect sound quality. I ask the question "Is an AC cable the last few feet in the AC transmission system or the first few feet?" From the amplifier's perspective, the AC cable is the first few feet. Robert Harley Editor-in-Chief The Perfect Vision The Absolute Sound
It seems to me that the only thing (or at least the most significant) these cords and conditioners can be doing is providing a more consistent and stable supply of current-literally storing current almost like buffer memory in a car cd player or iPod prevents the music from skipping when you hit a bump.
Neil
Neil Gader Associate Editor The Absolute Sound
My experience has been that a given power cord will not always react the same with every component. Sometimes results are good, sometimes not so good. I suppose you could call it a synergy thing. That's why I begin every review with stock power cords. Once I think I have a pretty good handle on the sound of a new component, I experiment with power cords to see if any I have on hand will improve the overall sound of the system.
As to how they work, I speculate that depends on the design of the cord--type of wire used, how that wire is configured, magnets, insulation, etc.--and how it interacts with the component as well as your house wiring. But that's just a guess on my part. I've taken a few aftermarket power cords apart (that I owned) and didn't really see anything special inside. But they can still make a significan difference/improvement if you match the right cord with the right component.
Just my two cents worth...
Sue
It's interesting-I had an amp manufacturer come by and he stated that short of rewiring a house and installing a dedicated line to the listening room he would opt for power cords that use the Palladian concept which he believes stabilizes the AC. Does this make sense?
Neil
Neil Gader Associate Editor The Absolute Sound
The only way that power cords can affect the sound of your system is by acting as filters. Some do this better than others. Many operate only in the realm of the imagination.
The Kimber Palladian, however, unquestionably improves the performance of every system I've tried it in -- especially when used to supply AC to digital gear. I modified one by removing the IEC connector and installing a four-outlet box instead, thereby allowing me to use one cable to supply all my digital gear.
The improvement is gigantic. I believe that the "secret" is not the wire used, but the molded bar (ferrite-like substance?) in the middle of the cord, that chokes out digital power supply noise from contaminating the rest of the system. Image depth, detail, speed, dynamics, bass impact, and instrumental and vocal realism all improved tremendously with the Palladian.
Barry Willis
I haven't tried the Palladian or Shunyata--perhaps I should. However, the use of ferrites in the Palladian makes me wary. I used to use external ferrite beads and Versa Dynamics Red Rollers (a doughnut-shaped device made of a ceramic/ferrite compound that was places over the plugs of the power cord) and, though the filtration effects were marked and the reduction in noise and grunge quite noticeable, I ended up not liking them because they also seemed to wash out tone color slightly and diminish dynamics.
On the whole, I think the sonic effects of power cords are somewhat overrated compared to the sonic effects of high-amperage, properly grounded dedicated lines.
I haven't tried the Palladian, either, but I am also wary of ferrites. I can hear ferrite a mile away. To me it sounds cold.
I also second the use of dedicated lines. One of the first things I did when I moved into the new house was have an electrician put in a dedicated line for the stereo.
The Palladian's didn't affect tonal color or create a sense of coldness, at least not in my system nor my colleague's system. It was more subtle than that. Oddly (because I didn't predict this) it only seem to affect the dimensional aspects of the soundstage, increase ambience retrieval. Part of this must have been due to a lower noise floor. More to the point, the results were spectacular in their subtlety, in the micro rather than the macro.
That being said, I agree with JV that nothing approaches a dedicated line!!! For those not able to deal with that option, playing with these power cords is a good option-and instantly verifiable. A good dealer should make them available for overnight audition. Don't like 'em, take 'em back.
Neil
Neil Gader Associate Editor The Absolute Sound
I've had a similar impression of ferrite filters as reported by Jonathan Valin and Sue Kraft. AudioQuest made some clamp-on ferrite filters for interconnects that produced a similar effect.
Shunyata Research makes it a point to emphasize that their Hydra products use no ferrite filters. They developed a special non-ferrous material that reportedly has the properties of ferrites without the negative side-effects.
Robert Harley
Editor-in-Chief
The Absolute Sound
The Perfect Vision
Just my .02 worth: I added a Nordost Vishnu power cable to my NAD AV receiver and a Nordost Shiva power cable to my Sony SACD player, and while I haven't noticed any difference in sound stage or clarity I have definitely noticed a significant decrease in background noise.
Johlke wrote:Just my .02 worth: I added a Nordost Vishnu power cable to my NAD AV receiver and a Nordost Shiva power cable to my Sony SACD player, and while I haven't noticed any difference in sound stage or clarity I have definitely noticed a significant decrease in background noise.
Try some wireworld power cables. They are pretty good.
Incidentally, Ray Kimber insists that the molded bar in the Palladian cable is not ferrite. He won't say what it is, and I'm unwilling to cut one open to find out. So until he reveals a company secret, it's a matter of speculation. I agree with Neil that the sonic improvements are "spectacular in their subtlety."
As with all experiences, it's best to approach this one with assumptions on hold.
Barry Willis
I fail to see how a power cord can effect the sound except/unless it has some sort of filtering device. After running through crappy house wiring, the power meets less resistance for a few feet before it reaches the greater resistance of the device's internal wiring. How can this possibly make a difference?
You cannot store power in a cord, so it cannot effect the amount of power available to the device. It all sounds like hocus-pocus to me.
Karp wrote:I fail to see how a power cord can effect the sound except/unless it has some sort of filtering device. After running through crappy house wiring, the power meets less resistance for a few feet before it reaches the greater resistance of the device's internal wiring. How can this possibly make a difference?
You cannot store power in a cord, so it cannot effect the amount of power available to the device. It all sounds like hocus-pocus to me.
It's true that you cannot store power in a cord however you can provide much more smooth and steady path for current to go thru with right power cord. I wouldn't even get into the filtering device. From my point of view, the filtering device filtered the real thing. Yet it’s subjective.
Filtering is done mainly by your power supply storage capacitors. The reduction in impedance effected by increasing power cord wiring size will be minimal unless they are getting warm, in which case it's a safety issue (stock cords are plenty big). It's not going to be near the impedance of your power supply with its transformer and rectifiers. Also, the power supply rejection of amplifiers is usually very good.
If you are getting noise in your power line, it will be audible and related to the noise. It won't increase distortion, change the bode plot of your equalization stage, or contribute to a vague feeling of malaise; but make a buzz or whine that varies along with motor speed, for instance. The capacitors should remove this from the power supply, but you could pick up this kind of crud on badly shielded interconnect cables or corroded connectors. If it's conducted into the amp chassis through the power line and radiated inside, somebody did a poor job of shielding. High RF fields (AM transmitters mostly) can get inside poor shielding, be rectified, and amplified.
A more common problem is ground loops. If your input cables have current running along their shields from one component to another, they induce a bit of signal into the inner conductor. Having a single power feed and single point ground minimizes this. A lot of stuff has small capacitors from each side of the line to ground to filter spikes, but this just puts the spikes into the ground current. Low Q ferrite doesn't send spikes somewhere else, but changes them to heat. They are put on many signal cords to reduce common mode radiation to comply with FCC regulations. They don't help low frequencies.
Changing a power cable changes the layout of the cable relative to input cables, which changes the noise pickup. It also changes the impedance and VSWR of the cable at VHF, UHF and microwave frequencies, and negligibly at audio frequencies.
That all said, I think spending a ton of money on power cables contributes to a feeling of euphoria, giving your system better definition, air, and effluence. If making a fire from a pile of small bills warms you up, then it is good for you.
Bottom line: I use stock cables. The horror. The horror.
(Just to show what a boor I am, I use LAMP CORD FOR SPEAKER WIRE. )
Logically, it seems that there are a few possibilities:
a) some AC cables supplied with equipment are actually worse than the (perhaps quite good) house wiring in reviewer's labs/homes. In this case, decreasing the resistance of the AC cable would help. Seems odd, since lowering the DC resistance of the line cord to below that of house wiring is pretty cheap, but perhaps some designers cut corners here?
b) a variation on a) is that the AC signal going into the amp is somehow more complex that a simple 60hz sine wave. Designers assume that DC resistance is the key measure of a good cable, and in the process forget to use wire that works with these more complex signals (and to complete the logic, Romex handles these signals just fine).
c) the AC line signal at the wall socket isn't pure (rf, a/c motor hash etc), and the aftermarket AC cables are filtering out the bad stuff while retaining the good. If this is the case, I'd think the designer would put the necessary circuitry into the amp's power supply. But the same logic applies to whatever goes on in power conditioners. Of course, maybe only a few folks know what the magic is. But if line noise is the problem, a simple filter would seem to do the trick, and that is a trick known to many if not all amp designers.
d) aftermarket cables actually degrade the performance of the amp, but do it in a way that is pleasing to some listeners (smoother, say). This is easy to understand, since the new ac cable can now filter and/or restrict current to do its job, and the preceding house wiring is largely irrelevant.
e) the interconnect business is soft, and AC cables were the next frontier for cable makers. Reviewers hear a difference, but it is psychoacoustic. This one is troubling because so many skeptics hear a difference.
Apparently no one knows?
Perhaps we can get Ray Kimber to weigh-in on this question. It's a good question.
Robert Harley
Re tmartin's observations above:
All perceived sonic effects are psychoacoustic, and a "degraded performance" that sounds better to a listener is actually an improved performance. The listener in his own room is the final arbiter of what's good and bad.
I too would love to get Ray Kimber to reveal company secrets, but he hasn't been willing to do that so far. Maybe someone on this forum can be more persuasive than I've been.
Barry Willis
AC power Cords
Audio Grade power cords we invented years ago were an in house contorversy !
After testing several ideas it was found that power cords do make a difference...
But the reason why a power cord does make a difference was to be another battle.
- Thanks to all of you supporters of Audio Grade Power cords !
From what we can ascertain is that the power cord is a supporting element
of high frequency 'noise' do to the SWR via the transformer and the three
wires of the power cord. The Green ground wire is subject to the AC-noise
found on the high-side of the power cord. Since this ground-wire is connected to the
chassis, the 'noise' is coupeled to the low side of the audio amp circuits.
Being impressed upon the 'first' lower stages of amplification, this noise
becomes a significant factor in the accumilated 'noise' in the early stages
of the amplifiers which hinders the fidelity of the Audio signal.
How to eleiminte or cancel this noise is what many try to do... but by
using conventional processes many manufactures fail to cancel this 'ringing' noise.
This in a nut shellis our conjecture as to how & why power cord can make an
audible difference.
Curtis Larson
RosVeta Audio
Esoteric Engineers
[p.s. We do not get any recompensation from any Manufacture of Audio Cables,
we are an independent Audio research Group.]
Thanks for that interesting post.
tmartin wrote:Logically, it seems that there are a few possibilities:
a) some AC cables supplied with equipment are actually worse than the (perhaps quite good) house wiring in reviewer's labs/homes. In this case, decreasing the resistance of the AC cable would help. Seems odd, since lowering the DC resistance of the line cord to below that of house wiring is pretty cheap, but perhaps some designers cut corners here?
b) a variation on a) is that the AC signal going into the amp is somehow more complex that a simple 60hz sine wave. Designers assume that DC resistance is the key measure of a good cable, and in the process forget to use wire that works with these more complex signals (and to complete the logic, Romex handles these signals just fine).
c) the AC line signal at the wall socket isn't pure (rf, a/c motor hash etc), and the aftermarket AC cables are filtering out the bad stuff while retaining the good. If this is the case, I'd think the designer would put the necessary circuitry into the amp's power supply. But the same logic applies to whatever goes on in power conditioners. Of course, maybe only a few folks know what the magic is. But if line noise is the problem, a simple filter would seem to do the trick, and that is a trick known to many if not all amp designers.
d) aftermarket cables actually degrade the performance of the amp, but do it in a way that is pleasing to some listeners (smoother, say). This is easy to understand, since the new ac cable can now filter and/or restrict current to do its job, and the preceding house wiring is largely irrelevant.
e) the interconnect business is soft, and AC cables were the next frontier for cable makers. Reviewers hear a difference, but it is psychoacoustic. This one is troubling because so many skeptics hear a difference.
Apparently no one knows?
I do.
It's a combination of A and D. As a beta tester for a manufacturer of power cables, I can tell you with certainty that great PC's 'do their thing' by not messing up the supply of AC current. Most of the cheapie PC's that equipment comes supplied with do indeed compromise the delivery of AC current. So compared to those budget 'wires', the upgraded stuff will sound better, even if it's flawed, based on an ideal AC conductor.
Good to be aboard.
Power cords DO not make any difference whatsoever.
Spend some time getting a high school education and realise that these SPECIAL cables are just ways of making you feel better and your wallet lighter.
The same for loudspaeker cables - just make sure you've got a large cross sectional area.
Anybody want a war of words - or a challenge on the physics / electronics / A-D circuitry or Hifi nuances (psychoacoustics) - I'll be pleased to oblige.
Now let's get MP3 banned and concentrate on Hi Fidelity!
Making assumptions based on engineering basics won't allow you to hear past your own beliefs. The audio industry is full of examples of advancements that were made because people ignored textbook dictums and dug deeper. The problem of jitter in digital audio is one huge example.
Citing Ohm's Law as evidence that no cable can make a difference is only looking at the most superficial behavior of any electromagnetic phenomenon. It's much more complex than that. Plus, as Bob Katz, Bob Ludwig, and many other mastering engineers have noted, "We can measure things we can't hear, and we can hear things we can't measure."
BW
ssomers wrote:Power cords DO not make any difference whatsoever.
Spend some time getting a high school education and realise that these SPECIAL cables are just ways of making you feel better and your wallet lighter.
The same for loudspaeker cables
Well, my experience was with the Purist Audio Design Dominus fluid and ferox power cords. I added these to my amp and sources this past spring. Wow! What a difference! Considerable extension in bass delivery and a greater degree of sonic coherence overall. I'm finding that I prefer the Ferox with sources because they provide greater dynamics and I like the fluid cables with the amp. I also upgraded my loudspeaker cables and interconnects over the winter to PAD Aqueous Anniversary. These were about five times the price of my previous cables, and believe me, if I didn't notice a sonic difference compared to the cheaper ones, I would have sold them in a heartbeat. Again, a pretty incredible improvement and extension of sound. I think claims like the one above should be backed up with solid personal experience with a variety of cable options if possible. Power cables do indeed make a difference--in some cases and with some power cables, this difference can be huge.
...it is easy to find a type of machine to correspond to each society, not because machines are determinant, but because they express social forms capable of engendering and using them.--Gilles Deleuze
I've read with interest the previous posts in this forum. Thanks for the fine contributions. One aspect that I could use some insight on is the prioritization of power cables. Assuming that I can't afford Palladium cords on each device, which ones would benefit the most, in what sequence or priority? I can imagine that the power conditioner should have a quality power cord, but after that, should I focus on the digital sources, the power amplifier or the digital display?
Many thanks!
Bob
Hi Villager,
I couldn't afford to put Palladians on all my gear either, but I did have an opportunity to experiment with several of them. What I found is that they made a huge difference with digital gear and only a subtle difference with analog gear. "Stacking" them throughout the system was a case of diminishing results.
Putting one on your disc player takes the performance into another realm, something I've verified in probably ten different systems. I suspect it's because the bar in the middle of the cord prevents wideband digital power supply noise from contaminating the system by the backdoor of AC power.
So to give all my digital sources the benefit of one Palladian, I took the IEC female connector off and put a four-gang outlet box on the end, using two WattGate duplex outlets. One Palladian supplies all my digital gear. Big benefits at a reasonable price.
BW
I can only say what I heard when I replaced the standard power cords with after market ones. :)
I heard deeper bass, more focused sound and clearer mid range. I didn't expect to hear anything. :shock:
My wife bought the after market power cords for me as a present, and as a "cosmetic" upgrade to go with the speaker and inter- connect cable to make the system look nice. :oops: (They were not an upgrade either, one was gift and the others a cosmetic upgrade too)
She came home and I had the sytem running and she heard a similar sound difference as myself. and explained it in different terms. She has a far more musical ear and in fact sang in bands in Chicago and plays many instruments. Myself, I sing in the bath and even my rubber ducky takes off out the window when I do!
ShengYa S10 Tube CDP. ShengYa SAT-3 Tube Pre Amp. ShengYa SP- T300 and SP-333 Hybrid Pwr Amp XINDAK FS-1 Loudspeaker cables, XINDAK AC-01 Interconnects, XINDAK PC-03 Power Cables. AURUM CANTUS Music Goddess Spkrs G&W TW-02D Power Supply Filter.
I recently wrote to the president of Purist Audio Design Cables, Jim Aud. I asked him the question a lot of skeptics asked about cables. Do they make a difference?
Jim told me about a system he set up using all Purist cables and had 30 "critical listeners" in the room. He played the track, and then switched just the power cord! He said that the sound went to the toilet. 29 of the 30 listeners agreed there was a huge change in the sound. there was one person that couldn't here it. Come to find out he had his mind made up before he entered the room.
Personally, If I have a Krell Preamp and Amp at about $10,000. It just would not make any sense to connect that gear with $2 of cables!
I have heard the difference, its impressive.
Many audio enthusiasts have a hard time getting past the 'miles of wire' fallacy, and their confusion is made worse by ignorant-but-noisy objectivists who cite engineering and psychological jargon but lack understanding of the concepts.
I don't know what Ray Kimber uses in his Palladium cords, but I do know how to manipulate the RF resonance properties of cords and cables. Cords and cables can be detuned to minimize their contribution to overall RF noise without degrading the audio band performance, and the audio effect of doing so is profound. My experience agrees with the other posters' in this forum, that ferrite devices do affect RF, but have a bad sonic flavor of their own in most cases. Keep in mind, though, that there are many recipes for ferrite ceramic, and some are less destructive to the audio band performance than others.
A related approach to improving one's sound is to reduce the RF noise generated by non-audio appliances in the domestic environment. Here too the resonance properties of cables and power cords contribute to the levels and spectral content of the background noise. Filters are important, but so are the RF damping properties of cables and cords.
Please note the distinction between shielding and damping: shielding blocks and reflects noise, but damping dissipates it. Adding shielding can make things worse in some cases, as the reflected noise just goes somewhere else.
In summary, power cords affect audio performance in part through their ability to amplify specific RF tones through the phenomenon of resonance. Measures to reduce RF transmission and/or resonance in the cords may have severe negative audio consequences, from audio band behavior, even if they are successful in reducing the RF noise levels. Successful power cord design is achieved by balancing the RF noise reduction with the audio band character.
I could not agree more with the statements of friend Barry and friend Collin^ and friend Robert.
You guys are absolutely right, soem cables are absolutely stunning in their result, I have not tried Ray Kimber's Paladian though I owuld like very much but I can attent of his PK10 gold and silver and they do many things right, also SHunyata's mopre exxpensive snakes cna do good things the problem is the snakes of SHunyata are very expensive for the clear results that canbe achieved for half if not less on another manufacturer.'Now people that expect to sel their power cords for $3K and $5K and even more shoudl go to the same doctor that the people who buy them and get their heads examined, Reality check some cables ofer a pristine and asbsolute improvement in differnt areas in diffenret type components I agree with anotehr one of our camrades thay ustains that shielding can be detrimental sometimes, but some other components it is just the ticket the case in point to video projectors or LCD or plasma flat screen or some digital front ends especially CD drive or DVD drive even soem DAC's can benefit form the shielded cable though it must be a good shielded cable of the likes of a good 6 nines copper Acrolink and pay special attention to connectors also.
Wattgate is good, Oyaide is absolutely out of this world as tey are his AC outlets, another area of improvement possible.
Instead of spending $4 or $5k in a single power cord get a wonderful AC power tratment of your liking, get a $400 opwer cord that will probably go 95 % of the efect of the more expensive brother and buy a ton of new music with all the small fortune saved.
Or go out and enjoy a live concert m aybe old rock, an intimate jazz club or simply a sinphonic or opera night with the wife.
That si money welll spent, get 4th row center tickets the effect will last a lot longer in your soul than a $5K power cord.
I hope this helps;
God Bless!;
Gonzalo
I have to agree with ssomers on this one. I've had my hearing tested within the past five years, and I simply cannot hear the difference.
I haven't tried any $2,000 power cords so I can't address those. What bothers me is that there is absolutely no scientific basis even presented by the power cord manufacturers as to why using different wire wrapped in different configurations should or does make any difference in sound quality. You would think there would at least be a theory on improved power cord or interconnect design but there isn't. It seems to me that there is just a bunch of people trying different wire combinations at random hoping that they hear a difference. Whether that difference is better or worse and across the entire audio spectrum who knows? They never present any evidence to support it.
It seems very odd to me that it is never the electronic manufacturers that design and manufacture these cords. It just seems that Companies like McIntosh, Krell, Mark Levinson, etc. would know what cables and interconnects work best with their own equipment. In fact for a long time these manufacturers had hard wired power cords until it became more marketable to do otherwise.
I have to believe that you would be a lot better off spending money on room acoustic devices or better speakers.
I just don't get it.
The problem with concluding that power cords don't matter based on listening in one system is that your sample is too limited.
After almost 30 years of reviewing I've found that sometimes power cords can make a huge difference and other times they don't do squat.
It all depends on the system and the system environment.
Adding just one component with a noisy RF and EMF generating power supply can wreak havoc with the rest of the system and require using power cords with much better EMF/RF rejection to prevent noise pollution and audible sonic degradation.
I actually test AC noise levels with a noise-sniffer and other devices and have found that some AC cables are extremely good at rejecting noise while others are not.
As to whether you need a particular cable's attributes depends on your environment and the rest of your system.
Sometimes AC cables are the most cost-efficient improvement you can make to your system while in other situations they won't make any audible difference.
In other words YMMV.
But to claim that AC cables make no audible difference or are merely a giant swindle demonstrates monumental ignorance of real-world audio. :shock:
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
After market Power cords can make a difference. Usually for the better - sometimes for the worse. My guess is that they don't affect what is coming in from the power line as much as what is coming out of one piece of equipment and into all the other pieces.
The head of Shunyata research once said that ( paraphrased) "as long as audio equipment uses full wave bridge rectification in the power supply, power cords will have a great effect on performance". He worked for NASA, so he must know something. Nordost also made power wiring for NASA before making consumer cable.
My home is the only one on a short 50ft ac power line that exits a huge pole mounted transformer. This should eliminate most line noise. Cords and conditioners still make a fair amount of difference. Those little Audio Prism wall wart filters do a lot on their own. Especially in the right places like refrigerator and flourescent light circuits. Maybe the majority of the noise comes in from your home! Lots of computers, lights, etc. involved there.
Wonder how the ac will be in the future with things like the internet being transmitted over the ac power grid?
thanks
barondla
Barondla makes a good point: power conditioners help by preventing noise in one component from getting into other components through the AC line. The not only filter incoming noise, but block noise from being put back onto the line.
Mr Harley,
have you tried a different power cord on your Sony Blu ray yet? Just wandering I was considering play around with power cords with mine but haven't had the chance.
Sheepherder
Shenandoah Valley, VA
Having used numerous power cords (Kimber Palladian, PS Audio, Audioquest, Wireworld, to name a few) on numerous different components, it bewilders me that any discerning listener can say aftermarket power cords make no difference. I could see where one might conclude that a certain powercord resulted in sound that was different but on whole not better. To say they make no difference suggests either a closed mind, very "ungolden ears" or extremely limited quality components.
I have not tried different power cords on my Sony Blu-ray player. The AC input is a non-standard jack (not an IEC jack).
I agree with JLeeMD about power cords. I was skeptical until one day in 1990 when I was comparing two power amplifiers using their stock AC cords. In shuffling equipment, the power cords were switched between amplifiers and my impressions of the two amplifiers changed. I had been attributing characteristics of the power cords to the amplifiers. I'm now very careful in using AC cords in equipment evaluations.
Barry Willis
It may be a little late but I'd like to answer
Karp and soomers..
Curtis
- - -
Karp-- Sun, 07/23/2006 - 09:28
- I fail to see how a power cord can effect the sound
except/unless it has some sort of filtering device.
- After running through crappy house wiring,
the power meets less resistance for a few feet
before it reaches the greater resistance of the device's internal wiring.
How can this possibly make a difference?
...It all sounds like hocus-pocus to me.
CJL : There is no chicanery or fraud here...
as stated in previous post [03/13/2009]
high frequency noise is being induced
into the ground plane.
- - -
ssomers-- Sat, 08/05/2006 - 18:13
- Power cords DO not make any difference whatsoever.
CJL : How do you know ? do you have any tests that
would support you statement ?
- - - --
ssomers-- Spend some time getting a high school education and
realize that these SPECIAL cables are just ways of making
you feel better and your wallet lighter.
...or a challenge on the physics / electronics / A-D circuitry
or Hi-fi nuances (psycho-Acoustics) - I'll be pleased to oblige.
CJL : Education in what ?
Abecedarian electronics ? High school, please...
Noise in the input AC power circuit is a result of common
SWR reflections. If the source Impedance does not match
the Load impedance there will be reflected energy.
In this case the amplitude of the noise is small ~ -30 to -45 dB but still noise.
To come to a direct and quick test, try different power cables to see
if you hear and differences.
If you want to test an Audio grade Power cord contact me and
I'll make one for you or show you how to make one !
-
ADCs & DACs are multi-staged devices that have many of their circuits
connected to 'ground' or a 'common' reference. The working voltage levels
are relatively the same amplitude. Whereas in a Power amplifier the first
stage[s] of amplification the noise to signal ratio level is low, but quickly
increases further down stream.
So then digital equipment - will / should - experience more noise
'interference' than the Power-Amplifiers.
And if you read closely this has been borne out even in this Forum !
Your challenge then is to disprove 'we' do not hear any differences !
your war of words vs. war of Esoteric knowledge.
Good Luck ssomers...
Curtis
I've used numerous different power cords and after having invested thousands of dollars, I've come to the conclusion that most power cords lower the noise which does improves audio and video performance. However, I am increasingly aware that most power cords degrade the music in one way or another. On balance, however, most aftermarket power cords are significantly better than stock power cords.
I don't know why it took me so long, but I finally tried a Shunyata power cord. I put a couple of Venoms ($100 each) in my home theater system (Bryston electronics) and was pleasantly surprised at how well they performed. As a result, I've begun the process of replacing all of my $500 PS Audio and Audioquest power cords with more Venoms.
Question for those at AV Guide: in my 2-channel system (Sony SCD-1, Mark Levinson electronics, B&W Signature speakers), I use the Kimber Palladians. After my experience with the inexpensive Venoms, I am considering replacing the Kimbers with Shunyata's higher end power cords, but am hesitant to do so as the Kimbers are quite good. I am aware that Robert Harley uses Shunyata for his reference system. Would it be correct to state that Shunyata's power cords are the most frequently used power cords of AV Guide reviewer's reference systems? Also, does Harry Pearson use the Kimber Palladians that he raved about not too long ago?
I know this is coming a little late, but in my experience Shunyata is incredible. I, too, started with Venoms but then quickly moved up the line. The improvement in sound was so vast in my system that I had to have their higher performance cords. I bought from online vendors with a no hassle return policy and trade-up policy so there's no risk in trying higher priced cords.
Another one to look at is the Nordost range. Their power cords are also pretty good. Depending on your location, it might be difficult, but if you get a chance to try before buying, that would definitely be the way to go.
I tried out an aftermarket cable on my $1500.00 H/T Receiver, and I was floored by the difference that just a power cord can make.
I am no engineer or anything like that, and I could not explain it to anybody, but I know what I heard.
The sounds were much cleaner and more alive, than with the stock cords. I used a ZU Audio power cable. Now, I have added some PS Audio power cables, and I am in the process of making my own high end power cables.
S Jones: try the Shunyata Venoms ($125). I find it to be a giant killer! My Kimber Palladians ($1200) are better but of all the power cords I own (Nordost, PS Audio, Kimber, Wireworld, Audioquest, Audio Magic) only these two impart substantial improvement in the sound WITHOUT altering harmonics or subtley dampening dynamics.
For those with continued skepticism about power cords, here is a moderately technical paper from the website of Equitech, makers of the most widely used power conditioners in pro audio. The paper addresses the impact of balanced power conditioning, rather than power cords per se, but the phenomenon of power supply-generated noise is well addressed.
http://www.equitech.com/articles/widescreen.html
Summary: most of the A/C noise in a system comes from the power supplies of the other components in the system. If you think that noise is insignificant, or should be filtered by other component's power supplies, you have to explain how using balanced power conditioning throughout a pro-audio setup can reduce the measured noise floor by as much as 15-20 Db. There is a reason all of the high-end studios use these conditioners, and it's not because they like throwing money away on useless gadgets.
Power cords are not sold as power conditioners, per se, but they obviously can be designed to filter the back-EMF from power supplies, and/or not to resonate at common PS noise frequencies. Whether the effect is audible will obviously depend on a bunch of factors, but there are real physical issues at work here.
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