AC conditioner OR AC regenerator?
jtein -- Thu, 01/06/2011 - 00:50
Hi folks, now that I've got my components and finite elemente pagode master reference rack down pat, it's time to train my sight on power conditioners.
I would therefore seek your opinion on whether a conditioner (Shunyata, Running Springs etc) would be more suitable versus a power regenerator like the PurePower 2000? Since clean power with perfect sine wave is critical for our components, does it make sense to say that a power regenerator is the preferred choice over conditioners?
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What's your budget? RH recently declared the Shunyata V-ray II power conditioner and CX power cords the state of the art. A typical system will cost around $10k. I already have their Anaconda CX and Python CX power cords. The V-ray II is next on my list. I currently use the PS Audio Power Plant Premier (PPP) with excellent results...significantly better than the P600 it replaced. I also use the PS Audio Powerplay 9000 in my high-end HT set-up. This one is the sleeper in PS Audio's line up. I actually think this unit might be better than the PPP.
JLee, my budget is around $5k. But that's besides the point. The Shunyata power conditioner is, well, just a conditioner. The PPP is an AC regenerator.
My point is: no matter how good or state-of-the-art a conditioner is, there's no point in using one if the AC supply is not good. Hence my question is whether an AC regenerator is the obvious choice over a conditioner?
In theory, an AC regenerator should prevail which is why I've been slow to upgrade my power "conditioner." However, TAS makes it pretty clear that the passive conditioners are SOTA. As we've seen over and over, theory and execution are not one in the same.
I've no doubt that the current batch of passive conditioners are SOTA. Which is why I'm eyeing the Running Springs Dmitri. But I think in my situation, theory is very real as my voltage fluctuates constantly from 226-229V (I live in Malaysia). Since my components are rated 230V, my brain tells me a power regenerator is the way to go since it produces a constant 230V. I guess the safest would be to invest in a regenerator AND a conditioner. This is one expensive hobby!
I've had this discussion the the folks at PS Audio. Audio equipment are made to function over a surprisingly large range of voltages. However, a part of my brain agrees with you that in theory a regenerator should be superior. Currently, the passive conditioners are considered SOTA. That might change as PS Audio just anounced a new generation of power plants (PerfectWave 5 and PerfectWave 10 power plants).
I agree, Itein: I've owned several iterations of the PS Audio Power Plants, as well as Shunyata line conditioner. I now have an Audience Ar2p-Teflon and also the Quantum (distributed by Nordost) 4 unit outlet. Astoundingly enough, the Quantum sounds better than the Audience, although I only have enough outlets on my Audience for 2 units, while the Quantum can handle all my units.
I still wondered if a power regenerator had more going for it than a line conditioner, since it stabilizes the ac line voltage.
And to buttress that concern, in the latest issue of TAS 210, HP comments on the midbass of the Nola Micro Reference speakers and how they sounded "warm" around 60 Hz. So, he put in an isolation transformer (apparently Carl Marchisottos was there and advised it was the ac that was causing it). After HP put in the isolation transformer, the midbass completely cleared up.
So, does this mean he removed the Audience and put in an isolation transformer or used both???? I've always wondered about this.
I can say the Audience and the Quantum together did not improve the sound at all. I almost thought they were fighting each other, sonically speaking.
Interesting. Is your Audience a passive conditioner and the Quantum a regenerator?
Any input from RH and the gang? Oh ya....they are all busy at the CES.
Quantum is simply a QBase unit. Not a regenerator. I assume the Audience is passive.
So far I haven't received a comprehensive and satisfactory reply from any of the TAS editors on the issue of regenerator vs conditioner. I would love and would be very grateful to hear from anyone from the team on this issue.
Good question, which I have not been able to find a good answer for either.
The new PSA PerfectWave Powerplant 10 sure looks nice and the theory behind it sounds great, BUT, like the orginal OP, I have yet to hear why passive conditioners like Shunyata V2, which I was considering purchasing "should" be better or "is" better than a power regenerator.
I have both an Audience Ar6T and a PSA PPP. The PPP by itself didn't do it for me. Seemed to be taking the life out of the music, even though it also cleaned it up. The A6T does everything that's been said in numerous reviews. The two together, however, are a very good match. The PPP feeds the Audience which feeds the entire system. They probably don't reccomend doing this, but the Audience opens up the music and the PPP cuts out the noise, improves the bass, and brings it all into focus. I have experimented with numerous combinations (way too much) and always come back to this set-up. Note that I am using the last model Audience Ar6T. They have recently upgraded several aspects of the unit.
Did you have any experience with the SilverCircle 5.0?
I have to admit, there are a lot of products out there claiming to do many different things using different technologies and I am trying to get a grasp of both the science and user experiences.
Sorry, just the Audience and the PSA PPP. I have found power cords making a difference too, but I feel all of this (cords, ic's, conditioners)is dependent on the system as a whole. Finding the perfect combo, unless you go to a lot of trouble and possibly spend a lot of money, is very difficult. The new PSA PP looks good but then there is always something new that looks good.
I have been thinking about the whole conditioner vs. regenerator thing as well. For the last 8 years I have been using Richard Gray's Pro 400 on my electronics.
Well, my Silver Circle has arrived and with great effort (the thing weighs118 lbs) I got it placed in my cabinet, replacing my MIT Z Powerbar. Now I cannot compare it to Shunyata or the Audience, but using the Z Powerbar as a reference, I can tell you there is no comparison. My amps are the McIntosh MC2301 monoblocks and my system has never sounded better. I am very happy that I have held off trying to clean up my listening room with traps, etc. as many of the issues I was expereincing have been resolved with this amazing product. It may be the best electronics piece I have. I am using it with Nola Micro Grands, McIntonsh 2301s and ARC REF 5.
The Silver Circle really really deserves the attention of any of you considering a unit for your power. It is also a relative bargain as it ships with their Vesivuis power cord which by itself is a great product.
Personally I never would have considered this had it not been for the serendipity of HP's review of a system similar to mine, where he experienced that 60hz grundge I too was experiencing which led to me to say, if it worked for HP why bother with the other stuff. Once again he was dead on. Besides fixing all the lower octave issues, the soundstage is much more solid, deeper and the layering so inherently fantastic in the Nolas is even better. I feel there is so much more headroom with the Silver Circle compared to before where at louder volumes and passages wtih more bass the system felt strained. NO MORE.
That is very good news, indeed, Priaptor. I, like Music Lover2, have been considering re-purchasing a PS Audio Power Plant, on the grounds that it most definitely, with a CD player, showed that variations in line voltage affected the stabiity of images on the CD player. I, too, have an Audience ar2pT conditioner, but had thought that it couldn't hurt to have a line regenerator, although, conceivably, the two products could "clash" (no way of knowing).
I looked at Silver Circle's site this morning, but given that the 5.0 is $4k, not going there!!! Just not part of the budget right now. I will most likely go the way of Music Lover, although I would imagine the "strain" you spoke of is improved with an isolation transformer, although there has been no indication that it keeps the voltage consistent, and CD players certainly show the effects of inconsistent voltage. They can, still, even with line conditioners, demonstrate that a microwave, on a different circuit, can still affect the detail and extension of the highs. Don't believe me? Try it yourself and see.
Nonetheless, this is good news. I wish HP had indicated (although it was not a review) whether the Silver Circle did things the Audience did not, but as this was not a full review, I understand why he hasn't. One can only hope he will compare the two so as to clear up if isolation in the midbass is something the Audience didn't do (by inference, it did not, or he wouldn't have discovered this only after inserting the Silver Circle). If the Audience had cleared up the midbass, the Nolas wouldn't have demonstrated the warm midbass, would they?? On the other hand, it demonstrates the linearity of the Nolas in the midbass, not something that is the case with older (Nola) models.
You may indeed be correct. Right now I just replaced the MIT Power Z bar and have everything plugged into the Silver Audio and the huge difference may indeed be the effect on the amps. The difference is tremendous. One variable at a time and I will try the Z Bar with the digital stuff before returning it. I do agree that it would have been nice if HP indicated how indeed he used the Silver Circle in relation to the Audience. Regardless, in the latest issue of TAS he did say he was going to give the Silver Audio his "5 stars".
Music Lover, I have a question: why do you suppose having the PPP in the system alone "took the life out..." but putting the Audience in behind the PPP helped? I find that fascinating, as I would assume that if the PPP is at the wall, it should have also been filtering the Audience with whatever energy it killed (but then, who knows??). I was just surrpised that the Audience and the Quantum hated each other in my system. It actually got murky, if that's possible with an Audience in the system!!! I was disappointed, but not surprised.
If there's an upgrade to the Teflon version, I am so in line!!! I'm actually going home tonight to plug the CD player back in to the Quantum (I pulled it out and plugged it in to the Audience, just to see which will sound better after days of having the CD player on the Audience. I have the Bryston dac on the Quantum, so an equally good experiment would be to plug the Bryston into the other receptacle of the Audience. Hmmmmm.....) But the line voltage changes in my CD player were obvious without the PPP.
JLee:
I was re-reading your post and you're right to mention TAS' picking out the "line conditioner of the Yearrrrrr!!!!" (Or merely State-Of-The-Art.) as the passive units. The only thing is, given their access to equipment, one would think they might want to try out -- or have on hand -- at least TWO of the other top conditioners before making each pronouncement.
As I recall, Harley pronounced the Running Springs Dimitri as "it" at one point -- I think it was just last year. Does this mean he compared the Dimitri to the Shunyata? As the Executive Editor of TAS, it is extremely unlikely that the manufacturer would have demanded the product back if Harley was mentioning his reference system (as they use to do, but rarely do now, so there's zero context available to you and me, the reader) in each article he wrote. The lack of an intercommentary system reduces the authority of the pronouncements that come regularly from TAS. Tom Martin has argued it's not necessary, but he's as wrong as the US invading Iraq on that point. It is always clearer to look at a diamond from many angles, not just one, and this particularly holds true in audio for the simple reason that once the objective reviewing is done (and don't forget, writers don't always mention what's important to you and me, just to them, although they'll cover SOME of the things that catch their attention. JV is probably best at mentioning the checklist (which is NOT a bad thing). It would be nice, though, if they'd refer to recordings and what SHOULD be there, but isn't with the product under review.
What will happen is that nobody else will comment on the Silver Circle -- except HP -- and it will remain in his Editors Choice/Golden Ears and everyone else will have theirs: Harley, the Shunyata; Neil Gader, the Synergistic Research Power Cell and so on. TAS doesn't listen to its readers except to argue, as in the latest issue that (on a different subject) true state of the art CAN be had at higher prices than the $20,000 mentioned by the reader in the March issue. And yes, he's right, but long, long, long, long, long, long ago, HP vowed that they would no longer use the word "bargain" any more, either, in response to a readers complaint that to call something extremely expensive a "bargain" when it cost a significant amount of money. I guess they either have short memories of the new owner, TM, isn't beholden to the tas of "old."
We're just going to have to chance all this for ourselves - assuming, 1) we can find a dealer who'll let us hear it in our home with a 30-day return policy or something like that. And good luck to us poor suckers with that!!!
By the way, I've spoken to someone about the differences in the various units: some charge by way of the capacitors (Audience, I was told) whereas, if I recall correctly, Silver Circle has huge transformers. Don't quote me on that, but I think I remembered the way it was explained correctly. And you'd need to get the 5.0, not the 3.0 if you want to use big amps. Oh, and don't plug the digital into the 5.0 or the garbage may feed back into the unit. My deduction: you'll need two: one for the amps and preamps and one for the digital. Only Priaptor can enlighten us (so far) on this. Whattaya say, P?!?!?!
Brion,
My experience so far is limited as I only took delivery on Friday, schleped it upstairs (118lbs) on Saturday and manipulated it into my cabinet that afternoon. I was so tired, all I did was plug every piece of gear into the thing as I had no patience to just isolate my amps (McIntosh MC2301s). My Transport/DAC/Preamp/Amps are all plugged in to the Silver Circle as well.
Since the Silver Circle will hum if exposed to DC current above 1V, for which they have a solution if it does, my first concern was that. Phase 1, pressing the button, watching the blue light, I was ecstatic, NO HUM therefore no DC on my line-relief.
As usual, before I do any serious listening I like to turn on the system, leave it on for a while and Silver Circle states their product is broken in but will improve after 24-72 hours. Phase 2, turning on my gear, I noticed, that I used to get a very short transient electronic sound from my MC2301s when I turned them on, that was totally gone, figured that meant something.
Phase 3, listening.
Saturday night I had a very short listening session, where I listened to Wasserman's Duets and was quite amazed at how clean the sound was, but reserved judgment for another night.
Sunday, more of the same.
Last night was the real test. Three hours, finally went to bed at 2 in the morning. I consider my system to be pretty good and must say, that I had been really enjoying it, BUT, last night I realized the Silver Circle is a transformational product. It might not get the accolades from Harley and Valen (who may or may not have heard it and like to stick with their Audience and Shunyata mainstream stuff) compared to the more commercial Shunyata and Audience, etc. but I have over the years come to trust HP as my main source and in this particular case, since HP was giving a mini-review of a system very similar to mine, I figured, what the heck. PLUS, I trust HP's reviews and while enjoy the others, I don't always trust them.
As Carl from Nola recommended and HP recommended, just plug everything into it and forget about it. The first thing I notice is that there is absolutely no strain on anything thrown at the system. I played Friday Night in San Francisco and can tell you it was the first time I really heard it. The guitar riffs were amazing. harmOrgan, 2L's new 192/24 a sensational recording (whether you like the music or not) became a unique experience after the installation of the Silver Circle. The lowest octaves of the organ were never resolved as they were last night in my system. The space surrounding the harmonica and the images and sharpness to the recording was a unique experience. I listened to about 8 different recordings in all including Patricia Barbara, Krall, Trio Jeepy, Livingston Taylor, HRx discs including Britten's Orchestra and Respighi and each and every recording sounded better in every aspect, from dynamics, both micro and macro, tonal range and perspective.
Look, I don't know from the Audience or Shunyata, have been using MIT's Power Z Bar, a decent power conditioner but can tell you I do have a fair amount of experience in the audio world since my days of selling this stuff, including being the first distributor in America for Siltech and will tell you that there have been few products that can transform a system, assuming the basics are in place, but this is one of them. I understand all the theoretical stuff regarding voltage and power regeneration as it can potentially effect digital, but in the end, it is the sound of the music and right now I have everything plugged into the Silver Circle and given these economic times, have no desire to piss away money if I don't need to and cannot and will not be separating my digital and preamp electric from my amps anytime soon as I am very very thrilled with the Silver Circle-much more than I was expecting.
While I understand 4K is a lot of money, it does come with their very good Vesuvius power cord and given that I am now convinced that I can use just one of these without having to further isolate my other equipment, I find it a relative bargain to the competition. To me, there have been just a handful of products I have encountered in my life that are truly transformational to a system and this is one of them. Unfortunately in today's audiophile world, it is rare to find a dealer, as I have been lucky to do (although he was not involved in this escapade of mine), that will work with you and take back equipment and work with you should you be dissatisfied. Mine, has been kind enough to take back my ZBar to get me back close to what I paid for it. Where once the TAS was a magazine that you could count on for guidance, in my opinion, it has unfortunately, with the exception of HP, become a magazine of what is the next greatest, best product that is better than the latest greatest product of last month. Personally, I have an open mind, have no problem admitting when I f--k up, which I did in the past, moving from my Watt/Puppies with splendid Spectral gear to Wilson X1s and Levinson-the biggest audio mistake of my life and a story for another time.
Just my opinion.
Glen, you've hit the nail on its head man! You've articulated what's been bothering me for some time now. I would insist on more intercommentaries especially Shunyata V-Ray vs. Running Springs Dmitri due to TAS' pronouncements. As for finding a dealer who'll let us hear it in our homes, fat chance (especially where I live)!
Priaptor:
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I'm wondering how the 3.0 would sound. I suppose I could buy it and sell it easily, especially after HP's mention of it. It seems as though it does the same thing as PS Audio's regenerator, (in a way: it doesn't regnerate electricity), but is, perhaps a more distinct "lows and highs" phenomenon. I wouldn't know. I'm thinking over getting the 3.0, but right now, I have both the Audience AND the Quantum....SOMEbody's going to have to go if I get a Silver Circle!!!!!
I cannot speak for the Silver Circle 3.0. My recommendation is to call David Stanard at their number and talk to him. Very nice and forthright guy who you can trust and will give you information specific for what you are looking for.
I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that it was not a good idea to plug the power amp into any PS Audio power plant reginerator. This same question about reginerators vs. conditioners has been bothering me and, like several of you, therotecially the reginerator would seem to be ideal but again, not to be used with an amp. Since I cant afford any of the ultra conditioners (the only ones that achieve the great resulots as I read) I'll stick with the original Shunyata, 4 outlet unit for the Marsh A400 amp (200/channel)and my Monster HTS 3500 for the line components. Sounds rrreeeeeaaaaaalllll good! At least until my ship (it would need to be a big one) comes in.
Jack D II
Priaptor:
The 3.0 is not recommended for amplifiers, according to Dave.
I have no doubt that the 5.0 is stunning, but finding a review where the reviewer mentions his previous ownership of other top-rated units as a comparison is somewhat frustrating. I've read reviews of the unit, but in so many of the reviews, the reviewer either a), didn't have a dedicated circuit and has the "gee-this-is-fantastic" reaction or b), had a dedicated circuit but hasn't had an (acknowledged) top-quality line conditioner in years or c), DID have one, but doesn't have it now and so cannot compare how that unit differs from the Silver Circle unit under review. And of course, the cop-out of not mentioning what the other units are/were, so as to provide the reader with a sense of the reviewer's prior experience with line conditioners. As we all know, our "first love" makes us gush like Old Faithful, but subsequent experiences are a bit more tempered with the acquaintanceship of time, perspective, and, hopefully, insight. Aside from HP, not a single other reviewer has had either the Synergistic Powercell, Transparent, Shunyata, Nordost or Audience conditioners (at least, they've not disclosed that they may have had one of these -- and recently, not 3 years ago, which is a lifetime in the audio world), and had the Silver Circle as well at one point.
Having, at present time, PS Audio, Quantum and Audience (teflon, which is a far sight superior to the non-teflon versions) units, I need to know where the Silver Circle excels -- as I'm sure it does -- because, as we all know, nothing is perfect. Otherwise, we'd all have found nirvana after our third speaker system or fifth amplifier. Until we're enlightened as to what, say, the Shunyata may do better than the Silver Circle, or what the Audience does that gives no ground up to the SC, it's guesswork. And buying without trying is a costly proposition.
I hear you.
For me the biggest problems with these reviews, particularly from Harley and Valin, while they are educational, they are also quite predictable. I would have set the odds at even money or even 2:5 (more sure than Secretariat) that Harley was going to find Wilsons the best sound of the show and Valin was going to find Magico best sound of the show; where ever and whatever that show is.
From my vantage point it is impossible to find a truly objective review as most reviewers have their personal bias, either sound wise or from a promotional standpoint. As I explained, I too once was an audio retailer and distributer, the later for Siltech, back in the 80s so I do have a fair number of connections. I understand the sound and characteristics of speaker and electronics I "personally" like. I talk to the speaker manufacturers, electronic manufacturers as well as different dealers, customers, vendors and listen to some reviewers, but for the most part, read most reviews with a grain of salt. HP is the one person whose reviews I do trust. I find his subjective biases as well as his objectivity reviewing equipment with those biases in mind, have, for the most part been accurate and coinciding with my likes and dislikes.
One thing I can assure you, putting the Silver Circle into my system, was not just a "first love old faithful" experience for me. My situation differs on this one more than most in that I have a system very similar to the one HP reviewed and likewise found some of the issues he found with the Micro Grands. His solution was placing the Silver Circle in the system which cured the beast. He basically just plugged everything into the Silver Circle, leaving the Audience alone and got the miraculous results he did. I rather not mention names of manufacturers who I have spoken to, but they make some of the finest speakers reviewed (and some of the most expensive ones at that) and they only use the Silver Circle.
From a personal experience, I do not have the Audience or the Shunyata and for the first time in FL have very clean power coming into the house. I will also tell you that I have found out that McIntosh does not recommend a power conditioner of any kind and recommends plugging directly into the wall. Therefore to get the dynamic spike with amps plugged into the wall, the amp has to go out into the power grid to get the current at peak demand, which you may or may not get. Since the Audience and Shunyata are very different beasts to the Silver Circle, I am very convinced (in fact I know) that McIntosh is wrong and that in particular for amplifiers, the Silver Circle's technology is the way to go, compared to the competitors. That might not be the case for CD players and DACs, but I feel very comfortable that Silver Circle 5 does what it claims and has allowed me to get the most out of my system. It is also a relative bargain given that it ships with their excellent Vesuvius power cord.
Priaptor:
I trust your experience and as you have the speakers -- and can confirm HP's findings (not that additional confirmation was needed, since he's had the Audience for a long while) -- and I do not. I dislike -- and mistrust -- any reviewer's commenting on something he has not had in his home
Not to contradict you, but I do trust that the reviewers hear what they say; without being in their room, it would be impossible -- not to mention, foolish -- to disagree. And technology changes so quickly these days that what was once touted as "the best" as in, say, the Dimitri Running Springs (at least, as far as memory allows) that Harley touted last year, has been surpassed by the Shunyatas.
The thing to remember is that, while a component may excel in some parameters, that does not mean it excels in every single paramter. This is one of the reasons I do like Jon's reviews: he covers a significant spectrum of what something does and does not do, although he may later discover he discounted a speaker's shortcomings (a la the Magico speaker that he later allowed that Andy Payor of Rockport had argued a point he (Jonathan) had rejected, namely the low-level cues). Just from logic, when Payor came out with the Rockport, one of its strengths was low-level detail, although, as I know from having purchased the Grasshopper cartridge, some of that detail was attributable to the Van den Hul, which surpassed the Parnassus in that respect. I wouild certainly trust that Payor, having made a turntable that excelled in this respect, and having made speakers since then, would know when a competing component did not exceed his own creations, so I would trust, or at the very least, consider his input to have been solid and valid.
Reviewers are like us: they discover, frequently later on -- as in Alan Taffels discover that the Bryston had "muted" highs, that they missed something. This is to be expected: they weight a component towards their biases, although objectively they may not discover, until they've heard better (as HP has, on occasion, reminded us) that there is better to be gotten. It's not a sin to not know this until later: life is, after all, a series of insights based on experiences.
Also, while many reviewers rarely comment on "timing" of components, it's obvious that "timing" also includes inter-transient silences, since nothing that does the timing of notes wrong is going to have the right rhythm of the composition. Therefore, "timing" should be paramount in reviews, but rarely mentioned , although Fred Kaplan, of all TAS's reviewers, was on top of this, and therefore the one reviewer I could trust on that matter. HP used to ridicule the Brits for their constant mention of "pace." And then he went on to write an essay on the "4th dimension" - time. I'd have thought this was obvious, but, heck, nobody's perfect, and HP is weak in mentioning this aspect of reproduction in his reviews, so one must be careful not to overlook it.
However, as it is becoming obvious that our electricity can befuddle our insights, and electricity is the one thing all our systems have in common, there should be more in the way of either a), intercommentary or b), experience. While I understand that shipping costs can undo a manufacturer, line conditioners are rather small, and should not (unless the economic strain is considerable) be based on one person's experience. I mean, how long does it take to get, plug it into the wall, and hear, the results of a line conditioner sooner, rather than later?? Besides this, it gives a magazine's conclusions much more authority in its pronouncements, which would increase circulation. After all, wouldn't one rather buy something knowing it had had several reviewer's observations, rather than just one reviewer's thoughts, especially given how often said reviewer, only 3 issues later, touts another component as "the best"???
Back to the Silver Circle. It does make one wonder if all the previous line conditioners were lacking in the ability to expose midbass colorations. How does one know whether or not that is the case? I'm glad to hear it does expose the problems our electrical power disguises. I don't doubt that this discovery wil have other manufactuers checking to be sure their line conditioners can compete in this vital frequency, dynamically and otherwise. We can only ALL benefit from this. But I'd still like, as the patient said to the doctor, a second opinion.
Glen,
Thanks for the insight. You are right.
I am lucky in a way that a reviewer who I respect, just so happened to be reviewing a system very similar to mine, experiencing what I was and found the "cure" which happened to be the Silver Audio. I understand your points very well. A quick study of modulation transfer function will quickly lead on to the conclusion that any "system", generic, stereo, assembly line, etc., will only be as good as its weakest link.
Living in FL, I used to have "good" days and "bad" days in the past with my Wilson X1's, Spectral and Levinson gear. I am convinced many of the issues were related to the electricity fed to the system. At that time, choices were relatively limited and the expensive power cords were just starting to make it on the scene as were the then revolutionary Z-boxes. And yes, after buying these products, which most people thought I was crazy to do so, but crazy or not, there turned out to be many less bad days relative to good days after these purchases. I am a firm believer in good electricity and do believe that much of what HP and I were hearing with the MC2301s were these very capable amps being starved when needed most.
I share your quandry, with so many products, we do have to rely on reviewers to help us. I serrendipitously had the good fortune of HP reviewing my system and tweaking it to "perfection", that tweak coming in the form of the Silver Circle. While the Z Powerbar may not be up to the standards of the Shunyata or Audience it is no slouch either and I purchased it based on past experience, knowing that evolutionary changes would happen and it was good start to get the system running, knowing full well, with the other products out there, if and when the time came, it would be replaced. HP's review hastened that move by a signficant factor. From a scientific approach, SC just seems to have the right methods for demanding amps.
Good hunting.
Priaptor:
Now's your chance to work backwards: find friends with Audience, Synergistiic, Dimitri and other line conditioners in your area and invite them to bring their line conditioners to your home. Then, swap 'em out and see what happens! It's not alway required we wait for reviewers, although when your average audiophile champions a product, the inevitable ".....I have such-and-such and it blew the (Audience, Nordost, Synergistic)." Name your conditioner and someone else will be condtioned to rage that theirs "blows away" the one you've mentioned -- even though they've never heard yours. Funny how that happens, huh?
I suppose the only thing to do is find a Silver Circle dealer and sojourn forth to their lair, where, one hopes, they have a finely-tuned system. And then to bring my conditioners and see what we shall see.
I am a bit pissed at the moment. After a series of emails with Silver Circle, I was informed that 1), I have around 15k in line conditioners. I have an audience ar2pt ($1695) and a Nordost Quantum ($700). I CLEARLY said I have an Ar 2pT. Anyone would know the two unit version is less expensive thean the 12 receptacle unit. And the Quantum 8 receptacle base unit is, currently, $2300. I have the 4 receptacle base -- which I also disclosed --unit. The math is off and the exaggeration is off the scale. And WHY would someone be reporting back to Silver Circle what I'm posting on the AV Guide. I assume this is not China, and anyone can read what anyone else posts. And who cares what I own? I'm not HP!!
Furthermore, the person who conveyed the information -- and I know who it is -- twisted my words to make it sound as though, despite having (15K) conditioners (what's this person smoking??), that I said the 4k (it's actually 5k) Silver Circle 5.0 is "too expensive." Now, let's get a brain here: if I HAD owned the $8,000 Audience (which, again, I don't and again, clearly said what the model was), would anyone be so brainless as to say I was complaining about something 3K less?! Does that actually make sense?? Only for those who a) can't read or b) have an ulterior motivation or c).....too pissed to even write what "C" could be. Oh wait, someone who doesn't take the time to read and comprehend what the writer ACTUALLY wrote (one of Jonathan Valin's complaints on this site, by the way. I see what he means).
Next, I re-read my posts and don't see a single word about not being happy with what I have. I'm just fascinated by the march of technology in any of its forms: that's why I work for a technology company.
Next, I DID call David at Circle, I didn't just "claim" I called him and I have the call logs to prove it. David did explain in the email - today -- that he meant the 3.0 might work with some amps, just not necessarily mine (Hurricanes were the ones I mentioned). It was he who told me the story about someone using the 3.0 with less than optimal results: that was not my uninformed opinion, thanks. Also, my dealer on the West Coast had emailed me when I was interested in buying a 3.0 (two days AFTER I spoke to David) and said, essentially, the same thing. So, I can only assume (yes, THIS time I'm assuming) that he was also told this by someone at Silver Circle. Again, not my words: someone else's.
To say that I "claim" I called someone is fightin' words, and to the poster, don't you EVER translate my words again. If I said I called, I called, got it? And Silver Circle can read, can't they?! They needn't post, but it costs nothing to confirm information. I was a reporter long ago, and I check my sources. I suggest everyone else do the bloody same. (Yes, I am REAL angry, and I hope it shows.)
As for wanting a reviewer to compare other units to the Silver, what, that's some kind of audio heresy? And, gossip guy, you seemed to understand it at that time, but apparently not enough not to "report" a post to SC (completely incorrectly, as my emails show. And don't push me to print them). If I wanted to be nasty, I would hardly use my actual name, now would I????
I'm not a fan of people who attribute bad motives to others, and in this case, let me close with what I wrote in one of these posts, visible to anyone who can read:
"Back to the Silver Circle. It does make one wonder if all the previous line conditioners were lacking in the ability to expose midbass colorations. How does one know whether or not that is the case? I'm glad to hear it does expose the problems our electrical power disguises. I don't doubt that this discovery wil have other manufactuers checking to be sure their line conditioners can compete in this vital frequency, dynamically and otherwise. We can only ALL benefit from this. "
Not exactly a slam on the Silver Circle unit. I thanked David for creating a great unit. I cannot congratulate the unfortunately deluded soul who made it sound as though I object to high priced units, given, in the past, I've had a Versa Dynamics 2.3, Goldmund Mimesis 9, WATT/Puppies and other highly expensive items. Please learn to read and don't attribute motives to others that come from your own subconscious, ok?
To put the above post into perspective, I was informed (by SC, after I asked them to consider letting me listen to the 5.0, the exact same thing I did with Nordost when I wanted to hear the Quantum) that someone had contacted them and that "the guy posts on the AVGuide and has Audience and Shunyata and wants some reviewer to compare them to the SC 5.0. It sounds like he has 15k in conditioners, is not happy and is still looking YET (caps directly from email) thinks the 5.0 is too much money and claims he called you about the 3.0 and he stated that you said it was 'not good for amplifiers.'" Moe, meet Larry and Curly.
By the way, Nordost found a dealer to let me listen to the Quantum, I paid the dealer in full for the components on loan, and after extensive listening, I purchased the Quantum. As I said above in this thread, the 5.0 wasn't in my budget, but I was re-considering, after figuring I could sell my mother into slave trade (a joke: she's dead and I loved her deeply) or something like that. Not keen on the idea after today.
And, whileI love Shunyata's products and definitely tout their power cords, I haven't had a line conditioner from them in a while, not since writing for Ultra Audio. As anyone can see from above (that's the nice thing about blogs: everyone can see exactly what you wrote), I suggested that someone with a 5.0 could get people with other manufacturer's units together and, without waiting for a reviewer's comparison to appear, could hear the differences themselves. This is exactly what I did by buying Audience and Quantum conditioners: I tried them out for myself by getting them on my own and listening to them. The idea that suggesting competing products together for evaluation is some horrible thing is a slap in the face to the concept of freedom of speech and exchanging ideas. After all, isn't this what Audio Societies routinely do? Isn't that their purpose, to try out products and listen for themselves? How else do they/we learn? For that matter, isn't that what TAS itself used to on occasion?? I'm appalled (but not surprised) that anyone, after reading my posts, could even form the words on paper to suggest bad intentions on my part. I suppose we could wait for a comparison by audio writers, but I don't see that happening any time soon. Some things you have to do for yourself.
If this is what the forums have sunk to (as in Whiner blasting anyone who believes they can hear the differences among power cords [another cable thread, and much dumber than this one has gotten]), we're one screwed up society. I've seen TAS' reviewers accused of being on the take, that the ads are in direct proportion to the reviews, everything. If you think that, you're a damned fool, and I should know: I wrote, briefly, veeeeeeery briefly, for TAS. I trust these guys' and the ladies -- wherever they are -- insights, allowing, at the same time, that they're human and can miss things, which is why I constantly cal for the return (as does Robert E. Greene) of the intercommentary system. It was one of HP's very best ideas. And in certain cases, it contributed insights that HP glossed over in his reviews, a la AHC's calling HP's statement that the Spectral had no sonic signature (circa 1992), just plain wrong. Apparently it did. As did the Parnassus, the Carnegie, the Valhallas and other components HP loved (and so did I), but which, in retrospect, it would've been nice to have other voices to keep his (subjective) opinions balanced.
It's the unenlightened thinking I see in forums sometimes that drives me wild. But the idea that I vented against expensive stuff and someone's even taking the time to contact a manufacturer who'd never heard of me about my comments is pretty lame. It would be like disliking HP's former flame, the ASR Emitter, or whatever it was, because it was a $20k, battery operated integrated. It was expensive, and highly lusted after yet a few short years ago, but where is it now? All components come and go in HP's system -- and they should!! He's lucky to have access to things most of us can only dream about, but nonetheless, components -- anyone's -- are like movie stars: they flare, burn brightly for a while -- and then disappear. And for good reason: something better comes along.Fame is fleeting, especially in audio. One should enjoy their creation's moment in the sun while it lasts.
Now, lets get back to the spirit of the post: what's better, a regenerator, a line conditioner or now, a new beast among the animals: a power transformer? This is exciting, lets not get bogged down in the mud. Maybe we can actually re-invent electricity, in a manner of speaking!
I've come to this conclusion: since my AC voltage fluctuates from 226 - 229V, and my electornics requires 230V, a regenerator that provides me with a constant 230V is the obvious choice. State-of-the-art conditioners will only useful if the voltage of the electricity to our homes does not fluctuate. Period. It's a no-brainer, no?
I've used a Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One 5.0 since August 2010. Prior to that I had used a Shunyata Hydra 6 with a Shunyata Alpha Helix Python. Shunyata Python CX power cords to my Bryston 4B SST amp and Bryston B26 preamp. Paradigm Studio 100 v 3 full range speakers and Zu Omen floorstander speakers. Front end is Squeezebox Touch wired, Benchmark Pre DAC, Michell Gyro SE with Michell arm and Clearaudio Melody cartridge, EAR 834 Phono stage. All components are on FIM isolation shelves with the Silver Circle on a FIM amp stand. Primacoustic australis bass treatment in four corners and Primacoustic gopods at first point of reflection on sidewall. A Shunyata wall plug is used and it is wired to it's own breaker (the plug is 8 feet from the electrical panel).
The Paradigm speakers were in use when I changed over from Shunyata to Silver Circle.Sound wise it was like every component in the system had been upgraded. Better dynamics, better soundstage, better bottom end control.
I use the Vesuvius 20 amp cord that came with Silver Circle. Had presold the Hydra and 20 amp Alpha Helix Python so unable to say how that cord compares to the Vesuvius.
One curiosity was an improvement to the Squeezebox Touch sound by turning the two prong plug over. The other curiosity is the sound was adversely affected plugging two QRT Symphony Pro's into the Silver Circle. Simple solution was plug the QRT's into the wall on a separate breaker circuit.
Guys,
While, I believe in theory at least, that an ac regenerator is superior to merely a conditioner, I find conditioners/regenerators way too expensive to add to my already(relatively to me) expensive hobby. I have a pair of Bryston 28B SST monoblocks and was very tempted to spring for the PurePower conditioner/regenerators, the only make endorsed by Bryston itself. However, their expense and the behemoth beasts that they are(I need a pair of them and each takes up about as much space as each of the monoblocks), made me hesitate. While voltages certainly fluctuate from day to day, generally the internal power supplies of most components seem to be fairly able to compensate for this. On those few days when the fluctuation varies too widely, and I can tell by simply wanting to switch off the music, I just do. The next day, it's back to what music should sound like. I have paid quite a bit for my cabling :- PS Audio AC-12 power cords for my dCS Puccini and U-clock and Shunyata Python power cords for the amps which connect directly to Vienna Acoustics The Music speakers all with Kimber Select interconnects and 6063 speaker cables. and can't personally justify the expense for the gargantuan Pure Power units. I used to own the Shunyata V-ray conditioner but it did suck out the dynamics from my system to an appreciable degree. Unplugging it made the music literally come to life. My next considered purchase would be the Bryston BDP-1 digital player for hi-rez files(about US$2500). Simply switching off the music on "bad' days is, for me, the most economical thing to do. Some manufacturers actually advise against using conditioners/regenerators for their products, because they can't ascertain the synergy of other makes with their component internal power supplies.
Before being so harsh I would recommend the Silver Circle. It is amazing unit and I have a Ref 5 and my McIntosh MC2301s plugged into it and despite what McIntosh recommends going direct into the wall outlet it adds depth to these already amazing amps I thought not possible.
Priaptor,
Not being harsh but just being practical with my hard-earned moolah. I actually had a Ref 5 and it sounded better plugged into the wall than through a Shunyata conditioner. But, it wasn't a Silver Circle and therein lies the conundrum. Let's just say hypothetically, that I get the SC and it turns out to be not in synergy with my system, making music less enjoyable than it currently is - would you take it for the full price that I paid for? Wait a minute, that should also include the cost of shipping to you. Nah, not a chance that you would do any of this. But thanks for the kind advice anyway.
Hey Jon, not to be too harsh, BUT it sounds like you are one of those American Libs, who wants something for nothing, no?
In JonJon world, I front you and guarantee you the $$, for a device, that you take no risk for according to your logic and furthermore, I have to assume and believe that you have the ability to evaluate "synergy" with a system that might not have any to begin with. I am getting it straight?
And to think I was actually going to include the cost of shipping. Oh well, enjoy the wall plug.
Priaptor,
Exactly my point. I know i am taking a risk purchasing the SC and since I can't afford to take that risk, I will not. Period.