3-way "mystery speaker" with deep bass below 20Hz
Jonathan Valin -- Tue, 06/19/2007 - 10:09
What's a little over three feet tall, less than seven inches deep, and under a foot wide at its widest point, has a mere three drivers with no crossover on the midrange unit, is housed in a sealed enclosure milled from 6061T-6 aircraft-grade aluminum billet, weighs almost 150 pounds per side in spite of its tiny size, disappears as a sound source almost as well as a MAGICO Mini, and is substantially flat to below 20Hz?
Give up?
Stay tuned to TAS to find out.
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This is an RTA of the "mystery speaker," taken from the "sweet spot" in my listening room, using Hallographs and TubeTraps for room treatment. Note that it has as much output at 10Hz as it does at 1kHz!
These must be part of Dick Cheney's secret stereo system. How did you get ahold of a pair?
Jonathan, please send them to my house when you're done. I'll even pay for shipping.
Larry
Jacob,
I heard them at CES (after an impressed Robert Harley told me to be sure not to miss the room). It is kinda like a magic act--to hear such a diminutive speaker generate such tremdously deep bass.
Larry,
I better not do that, given the trouble I caused myself the last time I loaned stereo gear to a friend!
Jonathan
jvalin wrote:
Larry,
I better not do that, given the trouble I caused myself the last time I loaned stereo gear to a friend!
Jonathan
Yeah, I remember the uproar. Next time I come east I'd love to stop by and listen.
Larry
You're certainly welcome to stop by--anytime.
Very gracious. Thank you, Jon. I'm looking forward to your review of this speaker in TAS.
Larry
Alas, the subwoofer sections of the intriguing "mystery" speakers, which have their own self-contained 1000W Class D amp and DSP, have both malfunctioned (in one case, repeatedly) and will have to go back to the manufacturer for repair and/or rejiggering. Needless to say, this is an unfortunate turn-of-events and will affect the timing and, sad to say, the content of my review.
Hi Jonathan--nevertheless, your measurements look sensational, particularly for a speaker of that size.
Yes, the measurements are iimpressive, Jacob. But...measurments never tell the whole story, as you well know. For instance, in order to get such truly incredible bass extension from a 10" driver in a very small enclosure, the low end has to be massively eq'd and then massively amplified digitally, using a highly ingenious transform.). Can you hear this? Wait for the review to find out, although the review, as noted, will be considerably delayed now because of "technical problems."
What is the mystery? The speaker is the Audio Machina Pure System. It consists of the Melody Monitor and Symphony Subwoofer. MSRP in U.S.A. is $20,000.
Well, it really wasn't much of a mystery since I talked about it at some length in my CES report.
The price, BTW, is now $24k and its AudioMachina (one word, not two).
“Well, it really wasn't much of a mystery since I talked about it at some length in my CES report.”
If this statement is true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, may I ask why then you chose to entitle your post “3-way "mystery speaker…?”
Regarding the MSRP, please refer to the company’s website:
http://www.audiomachina.com/images/puresystembrochure.pdf
Perhaps the website has not been updated? Which brings to mind the following questions: If the company does not have the resources to keep their website updated nor the engineering wherewithal to produce a design that is free from “technical problems” severe enough to necessitate its return and/or on-site repair, may I respectfully ask why the consumer should be expected to pony up $24,000 to become, effectively, nothing more than a beta tester?
Please note that I have not yet reviewed the AudioMachina PURE system and have not recommended it. (Indeed, I hadn't even mentioned its name before you spilled the beans, Telus, partly as a precaution--with a brand-new, relatively untried product--against what actually occurred, and partly to drum up a little curiosity about a genuinely novel speaker.)
Your point about beta-testing is well made. The electrical problems I experienced with the amp/DSP modules of the speaker's sub sections cropped up after I made my initial posts (including the RTA) and, precisely because of them, I am now taking a wait-and-see approach to the PURE system. No one can be expected to buy a product that doesn't work, no matter what it costs.
At the same time, when functioning, the speaker undeniably confounds expectations in bass performance for 3-ways (or any-ways) and is, in all regards, a serious effort by a smart and innovative engineer—worthy of attention in TAS. However, until the PURE system's electrical problems are ironed out, it will remain a fascinating curiosity rather than a viable option.
As for pricing...yes, it has changed from what is listed on the (admittedly) un-updated Web site. Part of the problem here is that the speaker's designer, Dr. Karl Schuemann, is pulling up roots and relocating, both his home and his business, from Washington state to Colorado. I think he may have had his hands too full to pay proper attention to the site.
For the record, Dr. Schuemann thinks he knows the reason why the amp/DSP modules are oscillating and can solve the problem relatively easily. We will, of course, see.
Jonathan--so far, my experience with equalizing has not been a happy one. But it sounds as though this speaker might be a little different. You've only succeeded in piquing my curiousity all the more!
This thread has not been updated for a while.
I just learned something about the audiomachina speakers (both the PURE and Maestro) that I thought I should update the information here.
When I read JV said that the bass section is eq and digitized, I was very curious and disappointed. As it turns out, a little more digging later, I have confirmed that the bass section is NOT digitized or 'eq'. These are obviously two 'no no' terms in the audiophile community and I thought this should be corrected.
The active bass section is active, powered by ICEPower 1000W modules, but it is NOT digitized, nor eq. Instead, what Dr. Schuemann has done is, like the Ultimate Monitor BOMB module, is to use something called the "Linkwitz Transform" which performs the exact inverse of the woofer's inherent sealed-box rolloff, and substitutes a new rolloff much lower down. There is no digitization, not imho, does this make this 'eq'.
I thought this information should be corrected and updated in case someone search on the speakers and came across JV's comments.
The Linkwitz transform is, of course, nothing new:
http://www.audiodesignline.com/howto/207600419;jsessionid=YJ5DIYTSZZJYQQ...
What the Linkwitz transform cannot do is move more air than any given driver can, or linearise the air in a box. The feat of making a woofer reproduce 20 Hz is not that monumental. The real issues are, with how much distortion, and at what level. There the Linkwitz transform can do nothing.
Oh I know it's nothing new. Just that JV said this "For instance, in order to get such truly incredible bass extension from a 10" driver in a very small enclosure, the low end has to be massively eq'd digitally and then massively amplified digitally, using a highly ingenious transform. This means that analog sources are, perforce, digitized (below 100Hz and through the sub's crossover region)."
I think it is important to clarify that that is not the approach the audiomachina speakers take.
How many of us real life audiophiles... with or without a job, or a system at all for that matter ... listen to anything with an RTA in use for scientific measurements and analysis ? How many of us real life audiophiles have the money for a total system costing $24,000.00 ... let alone one pair of speakers ... let alone yet again ones that have not proven to be reliable ? How many of us real life audiophiles actually give a darn about TAS reference standard (live music, etc.) and simply just want to be able to listen to (and actually have have it happen) our favorite music sound as good as it can whether it sounds like TAS reference standard or not ... or has subterranean bass like this speaker supposedly does ? How many of us real life audiophiles wish that the snooby store owners and managers would have the chips (of self assessed superiority to their customers) knocked off their shoulders so that they realize that they too have to use the exhaust fan when they exit the restroom because something of theirs actually does stink despite them thinking that it doesn't ?
Maybe I would buy this speaker if my wife and I won a massive lottery and ... oh yeah ... the speaker was reliable, and proven so for years, and the company stayed in business without complaints from the Better Business Bureau, and had a valid and well earned reputation for a quality product that was not prone to failures and took care of its customers like Audio Research and Conrad Johnson. Maybe then ...
Tom
TOM,
even Audio Research & Conrad Johnson had their growing pains Buddy...........that's the nature of innovation.it has nothing to do with audio.In any discipline if one wants to advance the art............then that's one of the prices you pay....................As for me, i'm one of those audiophiles who'll spend my money as long as the science and the engineering is sound.......amd the music experience is enhanced ......with follibles along the way and all. that's life..............and maybe you should take the time to go listen to a reference system .........it might just leave you dreaming even more for you and your wife to win that lotto............
I, for one, find some basic form of RTA/measurment, to be an invaluable tool when setting up a new system in a new room.
WSlam,
When I heard the PURE system at RMAF three years ago, the explanation of how its bass module worked was what I wrote (which is what I thought Karl told me when he visited me that winter). Perhaps the design was changed. Or I misunderstood him. It happens.
As for the PURE system's bass...it was phenomenal in extension, though not in dynamic or ultimate SPLS.
Jon
Hey JV,
Sure, it's probably a miscommunication somewhere. Since I am somewhat interested in the Maestro, I read up and found out how it's done. So I thought I would post here, since I recalled the eq and digitization part.
You have any intention to review the Maestro? The Japanese audio press seems to be all over it!
If it's at RMAF I'll give it a listen. I've got a lot of respect for Karl.
SPANNER,
i studied Physics and Mathematics...........so feel free to use terminology, equations, etc..........answer JV's final question for me......no arrogance, mo name calling and definitely no-gutter diatribe,,,i'm all ears........give it your best shot
Spanner/WSLAM isn't it then exactly what the eq/digi.(linkwitz transform) ...is suppossed to do..........try to approximate that linearity under such stressful conditions in the smaller enclosure
<<isn't it then exactly what the eq/digi.(linkwitz transform) ...is suppossed to do..........try to approximate that linearity under such stressful conditions in the smaller enclosure..
Zead,
I believe so. It is also a demonstrable (and demonstrated) fact that, in spite of what spaNNer said about the non-linearity of air and the excursion limits of a 10-inch driver in a small enclosure, the PURE system DID go down to 20Hz on my RTA, just as Karl claimed it would. The reliability of its eq/amp module aside, what gave the PURE system troubles (at least in the iteration I heard almost three years ago now at RMAF and also, later, for a few months in my home) was dynamic range and scale. It seemed too "polite" on big tuttis and hard transients and wouldn't play as loud as the competition above a certain SPL level. These limits, which Karl says are due to excursion limits (particularly in the midrange driver) just come with the territory with the PURE system. Karl's larger speaker solves these issues. He is a very bright man.
Jon
I wonder if the fact that the Maestro uses two 10in may improve the dynamic range and scale over the Pure. btw, Karl just updated the website with info on Pure MK II.
I'll take a look at the site, WS. (Are you or Zead going to RMAF?)
JV,
Nope. Kinda far for me to fly from HK ... =)
Look forward to your reports.
ws
Have you made a decision about the M5, yet?
No. =)
It's not such an easy decision. The *main* problem is that I am simply very happy with the Mini II. The second problem is... perhaps something I should left out on a public forum (hope I don't upset anyone), but it's that the local dealer continues to sell things at a higher price than the advertised MSRP in the US. There's really no currency fluctuation involved (the trading range is very limited (currencies are pegged))... but essentially, they will cost me US$96k instead. It just doesn't make much sense...especially since finally in my new room, I feel that I am getting even more out of the Mini II than before. The Mini II continues to impress me. (listening right now, 440am here!)
I met with a Model 6 owner a while back. We were talking about how every model in the whole Magico line up are ALL so good. It's really rare, and definitely a major accomplishment... but it makes upgrading so much more difficult. If for example, the 89k pricepoint seems too steep, then maybe I should just wait for a 50k pricepoint model. I already know, Alon will do a fantastic job at EVERY price point.
But I have to say I am intrigued by the Maestro. Every principle Karl takes on designing the Maestro is what I have always believed in and liked... First Order Cross over, Sealed Alum enclosures, Active sub will allow me to play with lower powered amps, perhaps medium power tubes... etc etc.
If you have any words of wisdom, do share! =)
WS,
Karl is a very very smart cookie--and a very nice man, to boot. When I heard the Maestros a year or so ago I was, frankly, a little disappointed but (and this will tell you almost all you need to know about the man) so was Karl. They were having troubles with ancillaries and room placement, and he admitted it. However...I'm quite sure (and I think I said this in my show report) that whatever Karl thinks up is--under the right circumstances--going to be quite special, quite ingeniously designed, and simply beautifully made. (The problems he had with the eq modules in the PURE system weren't design problems; they were parts failures over which he had no control). If, this year, the Maestros show as I think they will, I will review them.
As for the M5s and the Minis...look, I don't blame you for loving the Minis. I love the Minis. They are the best two-ways on God's green earth--in their own ways, and within their own inherent limits, high among the best speakers (lots of) money can buy. Indeed, what made the M5s so special to me was that they sounded so much like gigantic fuller-range Minis--a helluva accomplishment. (BTW, the V2s also sound very Mini-like.) But you're right...Alon does and will continue to do a great job at every price point. He just doesn't make a weak sister. So waiting may not be a bad strategy (especially since you're anything but unhappy with what you have). BTW, I don't think it's at all right that your HK dealer is jacking the price up on the M5s by $7k. That's not chicken feed.
Jon
Thanks JV.
Yes, the Mini II are simply fantastic speakers. My first pair of speakers were the B&W Silver Signature... I have a real soft spot for 2 way speakers Somehow, they just sound more 'intimate'. And the Mini II are simply the best 2 way speakers out there. The "II" are really so much better than the "I"... just when I thought that wasn't possible.
The M5, from my brief session, are imo, more 'resolved' than the Mini II. I have no idea how they pull that off, but I think the Magico tweeter really shares a closer sonic signature to the Nanotec drivers than the Revelator. The difference is not huge, but I heard it. I dare not to go back for another session with the M5s, because I am too 'weak' to resist!
What would be a dream come true? Magico comes out with a subwoofer 'stand' for the Mini II! I doubt Alon will ever do it, but that would be so cool. Speaker cables connect to the sub section, then crossover out to the Mini II speaker terminals. Make that all baltic birch like the Mini II... I wouldn't mind paying 20k for that if it gives me the same dyanmic sound down to 2x Hz. (essentially a 50k system). That would be the ideal upgrade path.. I dont have to worry about selling the Mini II.
Back to audiomachina... the only problem is audiomachina has no dealer in HK. But they do look like they are no-nonsense designs to say the least. Very tempted... at least the footprint is tiny. Everything looks good on paper.... I just may get them 'blind'...or 'deaf' in this case. =)
To be honest,WS, the PURE system didn't sound like the Minis (or like Magico speakers in general), which is something you may want to keep in mind. The things that stand out the most about Alon's designs is their coherence (they sound like "one speaker" not a concatenation of different drivers), their invisibility (their enclosures, drivers, and crossovers don't have as much of a "signature of their own" or "signatures of their own," making them seem to disappear more completely as sound sources), and their high resolution/low distortion (they aren't "showy" speakers which accentuate various frequency bands either by resonances or peakiness and about which you might be tempted to say: "Wow! What great bass" or "Wow, what great treble").
Thanks for your impression on the PURE. I am not interested in the PURE though. On paper, it sounds very interesting, but a full range driver simply has too many compromises, and making any of them integrate well with a subwoofer and a super tweeter sounds problematic. Given the Pure is based on a very different 'full range' driver, I think the Maestro will sound quite different, and Karl has told me so himself.
I have also managed to find someone in LA (whom I have been emailing with) who has both the Mini II and the Maestro. He is using both speakers in his studio, and he has been describing to me the diff.
I do not expect the Maestro to be a full range Mini. I don't think anyone but Magico can accomplish that (and they have with the M5).
Don't get me started on the HK dealer! They kinda redefine the words "elitist snobs" for me. And people think I'm an elitist slob...
CLC_09, you from HK too? Or you simply visited when you came to HK?
A Canadian Chinese living in HK, mainly a music lover with a passing interest in "Hi-Fi as products". Went to Snob Chamber with a friend to audition some Von Schweikert speakers. We were the only ones there as it was 2.30pm on a weekday. The staff were chatting away, no service. We approached one of them to ask for a dem, his reply was "You need to make an appointment." And they continue to chat away...
My friend ended up auditioning and eventually purchasing the Wilson Sophia 2s instead.
Having said that, I heard they treat their "loyal customers" very well and offer killer discounts. (but you need to "upgrade" every 6 months to earn that status, it seems)
Whenever a hifi enthusiast visits HK I recommend them to visit SC "incognito" to experience HK-style service at its finest.
What can I say?! (I lived in Canada for quite a number of years as well)
I definitely do not have that status, now do I think I will ever get there. But you have to admit, they carry some of the finest products out there.
I am half-half (almost), raised in T.O., studied there and came here almost 15 years now...
According to my buddy, the entry for being "loyal customer" is steep but after that it is smooth sailing (all things considered).
This is a real example, I won't disclose the dealer and the product but if you read the local rags, you might find out soon enough, but here's the full story.
My buddy is a "box shifter", his gear changes within 8 months, he has been doing it for years. Recently (think AV show) he fell in love with a pair new speakers. The list price is HKD 800k. Being a loyal customer, he has been offered the speakers for HKD 480k. Then in exchange for letting certain PR exposure (+ home visit, as he would be the first person in HK to own them) they are knocking another HKD 100k off the price. He is then selling his current speakers which he got 5 months ago for 150k, so he actually ends up paying 230k for a pair of speakers that is priced at 800k.
He is then offered a 70% dealer "buy back" should he gets tired of them within 6 months.
Sad but true, but maybe this how HK and China is keeping the "Hi-End" alive.
Snob Chamber was meant to invite HP and Magico to fly over for a presentation on the Magico Horns + Lamm, did it end up happening?
Well, nothing to envy about. I actually feel sorry for someone who has to change equipment so often (other than professional reviewers)! Where is the time and fun to sit down to enjoy actual music?! I think we all here like to constantly improve our playback setup, but to a point that I do not even have time to enjoy my music?! That's really not me...
At least we know this dealer you are referring to is not the Magico dealer since SC never participates in the AV Show in HK.
Actually, I've been there and heard the M6s there. The guy (there was only one guy in the store) was quite nice, but looked a bit depressed at having the ARC gear move upstairs to the Sonus Faber dealer.
He did put my CD on and was quite friendly. The demo wasn't too great though and he explained that they are still fiddling about to figure which ancillaries worked best (after losing ARC). I also heard the Minis in the smaller room, and can confirm that the sound coming out of my Minis is in a different league to what was coming from that showroom's.
I had no criticism of that dealer (perhaps I had the one nice guy that works there :)), but on one or two of the other floors, I did encounter a pretty rude attitude. I found it astonishing that some would refuse to play anything, despite the equipment being on and noone there, just because I hadn't booked a demo in advance.
I've been asked to explain the math behind air non-linearities in sealed boxes, so I'll try to keep this as brief as I can. Let's take atmospheric pressure at 1 bar in a closed box of 1 cubic foot. Now we'll mount a woofer in it, and that woofer will try to increase/decrease the volume by the exact same amount each way, say +/-5%, or +/-0.05 cubic foot if it is a VERY small box such as used in our systems. Most systems have only a 1 or 2 percent change in volume due to maximum woofer excursion. Now, the non-linearity comes from the fact that the pressure change inside the box is not exactly proportional to the change in volume, depending on whether it is compression or rarefaction, because the pressure increases more with 0.05 cubic feet of compression than it drops with an equal amount of rarefaction. You have to take the two ratios (1+.05)/1 and 1/(1-.05), which are of course 1.05 and 1.0526 respectively. The ratio between these two numbers, minus one, is approximately the distortion caused by the non-linearity of the "air spring" in the box. In this case, it is about 0.25% at full excursion, and less at lower power levels.
Now, go look up distortion data for any high-quality large woofer, and you will see distortion figures on the order of 10% at 20Hz at 1 watt. Some might be a little more or a little less, but this is in the ballpark. This is FORTY TIMES greater than the distortion due to the air in the box.
Now, any sealed box relies partly on the restoring force due to the woofer's own suspension, and partly on the restoring force due to the air in the box, as determined by the ratio between the woofer's Vas and the box volume. Of the two, using air for the spring is BY FAR the lower-distortion approach, and therefore anything one can do to increase the ratio of "air spring" to "woofer spring" is going to result in lower overall distortion in the end. This, incidentally, is exactly what we are doing in the PURE and Maestro designs. By using a woofer with a very low Qts in a very small, stiff box, we can force the air to provide the vast majority of the restorative spring force, and make the woofer's own suspension a relatively small effect overall.
The only place where air non-linearity is a real concern in loudspeaker design is in horns. At the throat (driver end) of a horn, it is easy for a compression driver to compress/rarefy the air by 20-30 percent or more. Do the above math again for these amounts, and put it in the midrange where the ear is exquisitely sensitive to distortions (unlike the low bass), and it becomes a real problem very quickly. But anyone who tries to tell you that the air's non-linearity is a concern in sealed boxes with direct drivers is a complete idiot. 'Nuff said.
Happy Listening!
Karl Schuemann
AudioMachina
Since there are always compromises in speakers design, then these sound like fair compromises. The box will need to be a lot bigger for these distortion ratio to be lowered significantly.
Many thanks, Karl. I didn't follow most of it (spaNNer is right--I'm a dope when it comes to the physics of loudspeakers, and, to be fair, he isn't), but I followed enough to understand that the non-linearity of the air in a sealed box isn't a major concern.
I heard the Maestro last year (or was it the year before last?). The room was problematical (as Karl conceded), but the speaker was promising. I hope to hear and the PURE Mk II at RMAF or CES.
JV
going back to something you mentioned earlier about the politeness and stress that the 10 inch appeared to be under i think is exactly the thing that ALON has adressed in the M5 which is why its turning heads...that being he's used the 2 nine inchs but it appears he's made one handle the brunt and not ask it to bring anything nore - so the reduction in distortion ...because the other driver kicks in those higher octaves...hence, there is no sense of that limitation in output that you (JV) experienced with the PURE system......in fact i think ALONs' Elliptical Crossover may be a radical take on the linkwitz transform in the lower octaves
zead,
Alon hasn't been forthcoming about his crossovers--at least not with me.
Jon
spaNNer,
Repost, please. I'm not the moderator of this Web site. And we were all enjoying watching you.
Jon