Read This Before Buying a Blu-ray Player
An Important Factor in Choosing a Blu-ray Player
Robert Harley
I recently took delivery of Classé Audio’s ambitious new $8000 SSP-800 controller for review. I was surprised, however, that the review sample did not decode the new audio formats, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, and DTS-HD Master Audio. Classé is working on an upgrade board—available free of charge to SSP-800 purchasers—that will add this capability. The upgrade will be offered next March. But is this lack of high-res audio decoding a shortcoming of the SSP-800? More to the point, does any surround-sound controller really need on-board decoding of the new high-res audio formats?
That might sound like a silly question—of course we want to hear soundtracks in high-res from Blu-ray discs. But the fact is that you don’t need a controller that “decodes” the new audio formats—but you do need a Blu-ray player that has one essential feature (keep reading).
The confusion arises from the term “decode.” Here’s how it works. The film soundtrack starts out as high-res PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) audio and is encoded into, for example, a Dolby TrueHD bitstream for storage on the Blu-ray disc. (I’ll use TrueHD as a stand-in for all the new audio formats.) You can think of this process as creating a Zip file on a PC.
The file must then be “unzipped” on playback; that is, the Dolby TrueHD bitstream must be decoded back into multichannel linear PCM audio for conversion to analog. This decoding can take place in the Blu-ray player or in the controller. If the decoding to PCM takes place in the player, the controller receives high-res PCM over the HDMI interface. The controller then converts the PCM to analog for listening. If the decoding of Dolby TrueHD to PCM takes place in the controller, the HDMI interface carries the TrueHD bitstream.
It really makes no difference sonically where the “decoding” takes place—in the player or in the controller. In fact, it may be advantageous to decode in the Blu-ray player rather than the controller because the format has the capability of mixing different audio sources on the fly during playback. An example of this is a director’s commentary posted on a movie studio’s website after the Blu-ray disc has been released; you can watch and listen to the movie from disc as well as hear the director’s commentary streamed from the web. There are many other examples of Blu-ray’s interactivity—features that are lost if the TrueHD-to-PCM decoding doesn’t take place in the Blu-ray player.
Not all Blu-ray players can perform this “unzipping” of TrueHD bitstreams to PCM. It requires a fair amount of DSP horsepower, making it an expensive (for now) feature for disc-player manufacturers. I expect, however, that all next-generation players will have this capability. For a full listing of Blu-ray player features (including whether the player can output decoded PCM), go to http://www.idoblu.co.uk/page2%20Blu-ray%20Players.html. Scroll down the page to see the player features. You’re looking for blue boxes in the True-HD and DTS-MA columns.
So, when you talk about whether a controller can “decode” the new audio formats, remember that there are two distinct functions—“unzipping” of the TrueHD bitstream to PCM, and the conversion of that PCM to analog. The former is best done in the player; the latter in the controller.
Unfortunately, the Sony BDP-S350 Blu-ray player I recently bought doesn’t decode the TrueHD bitstream to PCM. It will perform this decoding, however, with a software update. See http://esupport.sony.com/perl/news-item.pl?&news_id=274&mdl=BDPS350. I advise buying a player that has the ability to decode TrueHD bitstreams to PCM. Note that any Blu-ray player that has BDLive capability will decode TrueHD bitstream to PCM. That's because BD live involves mixing audio streams on the fly during playback, which requires decoding in the player.
Thanks to Classé Audio’s Dave Nauber for his discussion of this subject with me, and for his “unzipping” analogy.
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Comments
Which is why I bought the Panasonic DMP-BD35, it decodes everything including DTS-MA.
Thanks, again, Robert, for an always informative, accurate discussion, and timely, as well.
I have a Panasonic BD-55 "under the tree" as a Christmas present, and am patiently awaiting it's opening and hookup.
While it's not listed on the table, yet, it's previous model is, and it looks to be ok in this regard.
I will use plain ole DD and DTS 5.1, for now. I have a Classe" SSP-25, which was/is an excellent piece, but sadly no 7.1 analog ins.
So, at some point, I will need to upgrade, if I want to jump in with the newest audio formats. I suspect the sound will not be as great of a difference as, say the jump from LD to DVD, or DVD to Blu, but I eventually will get on the boat here.
If I get a new controller to decode, I could not afford a Classe', at this point, but would opt for the Integra 9.9.
If I get something used, like, for example, a Classe' SSP-30, with 7.1 analog ins, I would use the analog outs in the Blu-ray player to give me the High-Res audio. That would keep me Classe' (I like that).
All in good time, for me, as I have lots of other higher priority $$ items ahead of it.
Next year, most likely.
Merry Christmas!
Mike
VinylGuy
I am still a bit confused about the article. So, if I have a blueray player that can decode TrueHD, what kind of a receiver, home theatre decoder do I need? Just any plain old 7.1 channel receiver that can accept HDMI 1.3?
The AV receiver or controller must be able to accept high-resolution PCM over HDMI 1.3, and have high-resolution D/A converters. If the receiver or controller has HDMI 1.3, it most likely will work with a Blu-ray player for playback of the new audio formats.
I'm also still confused. What specific features are lost if the blu-ray player (e.g., Sony BDP-S350) doesn't convert the bitstream to PCM?
Len
If you have a Blu-ray player that doesn't perform this conversion of the Dolby TrueHD bitstream to multichannel PCM, you need that conversion capability in the receiver or controller.
Note that some of Blu-ray's features that involve mixing audio streams in the player (such as BDLive) work only if the player performs this conversion to PCM within the player.
I have the Panasonic BD-55 with the latest 1.6. firmware update. I recently upgraded to an Intrgea 9.9 from my Proceed AVP2 where I had been enjoying good old DD and DTS 5.1 as well as DDEX and DTS ES (when it was available) in a 7.1 setup for the past several years. I have the BD-55 connected to the 9.9 via an HDMI connection so the decoding is taking place in the controller. Using the Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA 2008 Blu-ray demo discs, the controller is reading either DD TrueHD or DTS HD MA respectively (BTW, the BD-55 has the BDLive capacity and will reportedly decode TrueHD to bitstream from what I have read). I took RH's advice a few years ago when DDEX and DTSES first came out and I am using dipoles for both the sides and rear surrounds which I prefer over speakers pointing directly at the listening area. I have a separate music only listening system and only use my dedicated home theater to watch movies. The Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA soundtracks are pretty amazing and a noticeable improvement or "jump" from good old 5.1 and even EX and ES. Also quite a bit of a difference compared to the move from LD to DVD. Unfortunately, I am finding that most Blu-ray soundtracks are in 5.1 and not 7.1 (including Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA which are also more common with 5.1). NTL, even the Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA 5.1 soundtracks which often have no compression are an improvement sonically over the DVD 5.1 soundtrack (however, some Blu-rays also appear to have the same 5.1 soundtrack as the DVD version). It would be nice to see more Blu-ray titles offering Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA 7.1 soundtracks to go along with the fabulous 1080P HD picture.
LeeW
One advantage to decoding in the controller is if you wish to take advantage of a room eq feature such as my Yamaha YPAO system which works on the HDMI input, but most multi-channel inputs bypass room eq. Further, I feel the HDMI is a superior interconnect compared to 6 analog RCA cables which will always be noisier compared to a single digital interconnect. I don't really care for BD live and I am doubtful I would ever use such extras, so for me HDMI into a modern controller with the latest codecs and room eq is a superior setup.
I also only use the HDMI 1.3a connection from my Panasonic BD-55 to my Integra 9.9 and will most likely never use the 7.1 analog channels from the Blu-ray player or BD Live (at this point anyway) either. The 9.9 has the excellent Audyssey MultiEQ XT audio speaker setup system which has gotten rave reviews and appears to do a great job. It would be nice to see TAS do a review on the 9.9.
Yeah dude try to keep up. The Panasonic BD-35 and 55 have been out for months. If you're going to tell people to read something before purchasing a Blu-ray player, and you're telling them to be careful because certain models don't have particular features, then at least have up-to-date information that includes the newest models that do have these features!
You will see in my original post a link to a website that includes detailed information for every Blu-ray player on the market—including the newest models that do have the ability to decode TrueHD bitstreams.
Any comment on the new Pioneer BD-09????
I own the pioneer elite bdp 09FD. It is bad ass and is the best tech out there atm. It really make a difference when you play a standard DVD. But it also does a great job with all the audio and video. I cant say enough about how well it works. The only bad thing is the cost. MSRP 2200
The second bad thing about the '09 is that Pioneer still does not offer DTS-MA on it.
I believe that the list of BD players/features contains an error. The Sony BDP-S350 only has 2.0 analog, not 5.1 as shown in the table.
http://www.idoblu.co.uk/page2%20Blu-ray%20Players.html
Why is HDMI 1.3 required to pass the LPCM from the player? If your controller is able to handle high bit rates i.e. 96/24, shouldn't a S/PDIF work just as well?
Robert:
Can you elaborate about the PS3 and how it feeds PCM to the receiver? In the chart from your link, it shows the PS3 as "blue" (decodes) but says "PCM" in the box (no other DVD player has the annotation).
Can you explain how the PS3 is different than the other BR players in this respect?
Thanks!
Robert:
Let me just start by saying thanks for all the great info I find in TAS--helped enormously this past year as I upgraded my 2-channel system -- I was finally was able to spend some decent amount of money on new gear now that i'm middle aged.
My question on this blu-ray topic, though, is -- if the BR player decodes the TrueHD into PCM then a) is there any loss of quality and b) can that PCM signal be carried to the receiver via digital coax cable S/PDIF? Part of my confusion stems from a related article in TAS #182 where I interpreted your comments to mean such an architecture would result in loss of quality. The downconverted 640kbps stream would be better than normal DVD 384kbps, but lower than the 192/24 stream of TrueHD.
The answer is critical to my next purchase. Now that I've upgraded my stereo gear I'm movin on to multichannel room. If I can connect a BR player to a receiver via dig coaxial, then I can maximize the amplifier quality by buying second hand. I would look for an older receiver or separates with really good amplifier, but that may not have latest HDMI and decoding.
S/PDIF does not have the bandwith to support the mulit-channel PCM of TrueHD and DTS-HD MA which is why HDMI 1.1 or higher is required.
For the bitstream to be passed to a controller with TrueHD and DTS-HD decoding than HDMI 1.3 is required in the Blu-ray player with one exception. The PS3 does have a very early version of HDMI 1.3 and to my knowledge is the only Blu-ray player with a HDMI 1.3 connection that cannot send a bitstream of the new codecs. The PS3 must do all of the decoding inside the player and it then sends out a PCM via it's HDMI output. This means if you get a new pre-pro or receiver that decodes TrueHD and use a PS3 for Blu-rays your receiver will not light up the TrueHD logo on your receiver, instead it will show PCM, multi-channel PCM or whatever your receiver defines as PCM. Even though TrueHD is not lit up on your receiver you are in fact listening to the TrueHD track, it has just been decoded prior to being sent to your receiver.
To listen to TrueHD you will need either a pre-pro or receiver that has HDMI inputs and accepts either bitstreamed TrueHD signals or multi-channel PCM signals. You can also use pre-pro's and receivers that lack HDMI but have multi-channel analaog inputs as long as you use a Blu-ray player that inlcudes multi-channel analog outputs and decodes TrueHD internally to those outputs.
Some older HDMI pre-pro's and receivers only accepted 2 channel LPCM or did not accept audio at all via HDMI. For this reason you should look at the specs carefully if you are planning on buying an older HDMI receiver to save money and not assume all HDMI is the same.
This has to be one of the most difficult things to explain and if you still don't get it then here is a simple solution. Buy a pre-pro or receiver that has TrueHD decoding and mate it with a Blu-ray that has HDMI 1.3 outputs just as long as it is not the PS3. This way when you play a BD that has a TrueHD track your new receiver will lite up that magical TrueHD logo and you will grin from ear to ear.
Can you explain how the PS3 is different than the other BR <a href=http://endxsoftware.com>players</a> in this respect?
http://endxsoftware.com
In my experience Receivers are the worst investment in home theater and audio. Once a new format or interconnection system comes out you might as well throw your receiver away because you wont get decent fraction of what you paid for it even if you tried to sell it. Landfills are full of pro-logic receivers and their progeny.
I think they should turn the cheap player + gadgety receiver paradigm on its head. Here's a thought for the industry to consider. Get the decoders out of the receivers and processors and put them in the players. Outfit the players with good multi-channel analog output stages and start putting the money spent on the HDMI interfaces and DSP boards into making good sounding multi-channel pre-amplifiers or multichannel integrated amplifiers. Let the players do all the video work. Anybody who cares about the quality of their video will likely go and connect the video outs directly to their displays anyway so skip the video switching as well. Furthermore statistics will show that the average consumer has no more than 2 or at most 3 video sources that use HDMI, probably a disc player, a gaming platform and a digital set top box. Make players with different levels of functionality and price them accordingly. It will make it much simpler for a consumer to adopt the new technology and will do away with the frustration of having to deal with the way our equipment goes obsolete all too quickly. This is an emotional barrier that the industry must overcome. It is difficult for me to rationalize a full overhaul of my HT system because unlike in my 2 channel system, the upgrade paths are almost guaranteed to hit dead ends. If the player carries the workload then only the player or perhaps the display or projector need be invested in. The consortium should really consider this. Keep the digital workings in the source boxes and leave the rest analog. That's my 2 cents. I will also hold off on buying another BD-ROM based player until the long unzipping process is cutdown. It is a pain.
I agree in principle with MD's position. It is incumbent upon the industry to standardize the manner is which BluRay video and audio are processed - either within the player or within the prepro, but not a helter-skelter choice of options and features that only serve to confuse the consumer and assure incompatibility among products. It would seem most logical to have all audio decoding accomplished within the prepro, thereby requiring a standardized bitstream link between the player and the prepro. It would also seem logical to have all video processing accomplished within the player, and all video switching done via a standalone HDMI switcher to keep video "noise" out of the prepro. Now I realize that the industry thrives on planned obsolescense, but that is exactly the reason I've waited to jump on the BluRay bandwagon. Once the industry "gets it" with regard to the benefit that consumers can derive from technological consistency, perhaps we'll see this whole mishmash cleaned up. There I go again, dreaming of the impossible.
I have an Anthem AVM 2. It is an older processor to be sure but it has worked flawlessly. I have a pure 2 channel system that bypasses this pre pro. (Wadia CD Player with its own preamp). When I want to watch a movie I connect the balanced cables to my main 2 channel amp from the Anthem pre pro. I recently purchased a PS3 just to get cheap Blue Ray until I figure out the next move. The way I understand it is that if I purchased a BR player that decodes and outputs analog 5.1 I can connect to the Anthem AVM2 analog inputs with rca's. I am told that this will give me DTS Master and True HD? Am I on the right track?
I would far rather spend the $$$ on the BR Player than have to upgrade my Pre Pro.
Please advise.
B Davy
I got that first Generation sony BDP-s300, I have it connected to my reciever but the reciever doesn't do the HD just regualer dobly and DTS, sounds good alot better than my old DVD player. The Blu-Ray fixed the issue I had with my DVD and the home theater with soft low vocals you can;t hear so you have to turn it up, you don't have that problem anymore.
But, the downside to the blu-ray is the start up time. Right now I have the Dark Knight in it and takes a good 3 minutes to load the Blu-Ray even with the new firmware on it. The other design issue with the machine is were the power and eject button are on top of the player, but at least the machine is really long so you can sit it out a little farther.
Robert: My HT system is a Denon 4308CI and Panasonic DMP-BD55 with Klipsch 7.1 speaker set-up. I am using HDMI to connect. Is it better to set the Panasonic to PCM or Bitstream? For each which equipment handles the processing? When I choose Bitstream with secondary audio "off" in the Panasonic, the front panel on the Denon says DTS Mstr (for example) and audio status is 3/2/.1 but when I choose PCM in the Panasonic the Denon front panel says Multi Channel and the audio status is 3/4/.1 (which I believe refers to the discrete signals to the amps and therefore to the speakers). What gets me the best use of the 7.1 Klipsch, the highest possible sound quality and the best surround effects? Which equipment is doing what in both cases? Also, most movies seem to be DTSHD 5.1 with a few DTSHD 7.1. Are your recommended settings different for each of these and if so how? A lot of folks have the same Panasonic and have similar receiver capabilities with 7.1 speaker systems so a full explaination will be very helpful. Thank you.
Sony tried to tell everyone when the PS-3 came out that the best audio possible from a Blu-Ray disk were the ones encoded with linear multi-channnel PCM, but most folks didn' get it. The PS-3 is a remarkable multi-functional marvel for the price and I quite frankly marvel at people who try to deride its capabilities and try to dupe people into buying equipment at 5x its cost that may just NOW be catching up to the 2.0 specification that it has been at for a long time. The PS-3 is still the best Blu-Ray player for the buck - the Sony BDP-550 probably comes in a close second as a stand-alone B-R player. I do not understand those who argue against multi-channel PCM into receivers from the PS-3 decoders over HDMI when the PS-3 will decode all compressors, 7.1-channel 96/192 included. It just doesn't get any better than uncompressed, multi-channel PCM...PERIOD! If you want to prove it to yourself, buy the remastered The Fifth Element and set the audio between DolbyHD and then PCM to compare the differences.
If you want to go up to +$2K bracket, I might argue that the Pioneer BDP-09 would provide slightly silkier sound because of the individual channel D/As, but then one should use its independent analog outputs to the receiver. Bitstream into the receiver doesn't provide any advantage, and I have a Yamaha RX-Z11.
Mr. Harley is right. You don't need a new controller to take advantage of the new HD surround codecs. All you need is a receiver or pre/pro with at least 5.1 analog pass through and a blu ray player with at least 5.1 analog outs that can encode and play the new codecs. I own an Arcam AV9, the same as Robert Harley's, and I play the new codecs though my Sony blu-ray, the BDP-S5000ES. I could not be happier. My understanding is that Robert Harley will be evaluating this blu-ray player along with the Denon 3800and the Pioneer Elite '09 player. If you read this Mr. Harley, please comment on how theses high end blu-ray players sound with 2 channel music in comparision to a good CD player with 2 channel as well as how the players sound against each other. It would be good info.
I'm still struggling with some of the variations in processing and outputs. I guess I'm kind of old school, but made the jump last year to Blu-Ray (panasonic 35), Yamaha AVR-1800 and an Aqous 52". First I wired the outputs from the BR and the Cable box directly through the flatscreen (and then took the audio to the reciever via digital fiber). Sounded OK. Later I was told that going through the receiver was going to get me better sound (but pulling the stand away from the wall was / is a PITA), so I waited until I upgraded some speakers to go back in there and do it. It now decodes some more signals than it could before. Not all discs seem to send the better signals, but when they are present, the sound is much better.
Jumping into this level from my progression from AR amplifiers and AR-3a's, KLH -18 Tuner and AR Turntable to (over a lot of years and other equipment), to this has been a long trek. (Still have all except the AR Amp: it died, and I had to change the woofers in the 3a's).
I have the Samsung BD-P1500. did i Buy the wrong player? what are my player's limitations? What is it exactly My player is missing, I refered to the linked page and do not understand.
thanks alan
Robert,
I am thinking of purchasing the Oppo BDP-83 player. I have a 7 channel amplifier. I was going to run HDMI from the BDP-83 to the HDTV display, and the 7.1 output of the BDP-83 to my amplifier. The BDP-83 has a volume control operated by the remote.
This way I would not need a prepro if I just wanted basic HT, without any frills.
Do you have any comments on this or should I get a receiver or prepro to hook up to the amplifier, rather than the BDP-83.
Thanks for your help
i already purchased an oppo bdp-83 player and have the classe' ssp-300 controller that does not have hdmi but does have 7.1 rca inputs...where does that leave me?
thanks, JoeP
thanks You sure do know what your'e talking about. Man, this blog is just great! I cant wait to read more of what youv'e got to say. Im really happy that I came across this when I did because I was really starting