Q(uo) Vadis? Magico Introduces a New Line of Loudspeakers at CES 2010!
This year's CES is likely to be unusually exciting for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is the little number from Magico shown below.
If you go to the Magico Web site at www.magico.net/, you will be surprised to see a great big letter "Q" with the date 2010 beneath it. What this mystery symbol stands for is a whole new line of aluminum-bodied loudspeakers--the first of which, the Q5, is to be introduced at this year's CES. Clck on the "Q" symbol and you will see a series of pictures of the gorgeous, deco-looking Q5, one of which I've pasted in below.
The Q Series is kind of a culmination for Alon Wolf and his partner Yair Tammam. Not only does it use all-Magico-designed drivers, including a brand-new, built-in-house dome tweeter that is said to extend upper-end frequency response to well beyond 50kHz at lower distortion levels and higher transmission speeds than Magico's superb MR-1 ring-radiator tweet, but its chassis is, as you can see, an all-aluminum model of extraordinary sophistication and beauty. (See the Q site for photos of the incredibly elaborate cross-bracing inside the box.)
For years, Wolf and Tammam have wanted to build all Magico speaker enclosures entirely of aluminum (as they did with their ultra-expensive M6 and state-of-the-art Ultimate) because of its ideal blend of stiffness and mass (only prohibitively expensive titanium outperforms aluminum in these regards); the problem was costs--both for Magico and for the end-user. Recently, however, Magico acquired its own machine shop with 6 CNC milling machines. Building in house--rather than farming enclosure construction out to companies in Denmark or the U.S.--not only gave Magico heretofore unparalleled control of the entire speaker-building process, it also lowered construction costs substantially, since it is much cheaper to use your own CNC machines than to rent time on someone else's by the hour. As a result the Q5, pictured above, at an MSRP of $54,000 will be CONSIDERABLY LESS EXPENSIVE than my current reference, the $89,000 M5, in spite of the facts that the Q5 uses newer technology drivers and enclosures.
How it will fare against my current reference is a question that I am eager to hear answered. As good as the M5 is--and it is still, far and away, the best speaker, overall, I've heard (by which I mean the most lifelike speaker i've heard--in my room, with my ancillaries and my music)--it is not the best in every regard. As I noted carefully in my M5 review, there are a number of other speakers that outperform it in certain areas--particularly in low-level resolution at low volumes, transparency to sources, and dynamic range and scale (particularly on the piano end of the spectrum). In my conclusion to the review, I also said that the absolute sound is a rapidly moving target and that there might be other speakers on the horizon or speakers I simply hadn't auditioned yet that could outperform the M5s. At the time I didn't know about the Q5, which has been kept a deep secret by Magico. But we may--repeat, may--have arrived at the horizon line a lot faster than I would've guessed. I'm making no predictions about the Q5, save to note that on the basis of past experience Magico does not introduce new products that aren't worth attending to. The M5 sets a standard for large multi-driver loudspeakers that is going to be very tough to equal or to best.
The public unveiling of the Magico Q Series should make what was already going to be a very interesting CES that much more interesting.
Comments
Hi JV,
Very interesting development. Would you know if they are targeting the Q series as the top end of their offering or this would still be the M series?
All the Best
Hmmm, a shot across YG Acoustics' bow. Magico and YG are relentless competitors, and this ups the ante.
Although the Q5 may appear to be a "shot across YG Acoustics' bow," I don't think that's the case. As I understand it Wolf was making aluminum-enclosure speakers well before YG Acoustics and Magico itself were in business. (Click on the link below for a look at a composite photo taken from Magico's Web site of various one-of speakers that Wolf built for himself and others throughout the 90s, prior to founding Magico, and you'll see any number of aluminum-enclosure models.) Aluminum has always been his enclosure-material of choice, but because of the prohibitively high price of jobbing aluminum enclosures out to machine shops, he settled on stacked birch-ply with heavy-duty aluminum baffles, save for his most expensive products like the M6 and Ultimate. Indeed, the rumor, once fairly wide-spread but, as it turns out, completely false, that Wolf had had a hand in designing Krell's aluminum-bodied LAT-1 speakers got started primarily because of Wolf's track record of building enclosures from that material.
http://jlvalin.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p1059615286-3.jpg
Thanks for the link and excellent update - now - wonder how much I can get for my home in today's "recovering recession"....
Dear WDII,
Thank you for pointing out what I am sure some audiophiles are thinking. I must say that, while YG Acoustics and Magico are definitely competitors, I agree with Jonathan Valin in that I do not believe that Magico is attempting to "attack" us with their new product.
After all, while they justly pride themselves in being able to produce a fully-machined all-aluminum enclosure for $54k (it is about one third the price of their lowest-price all-aluminum offering so far), we have now been producing the Kipod Studio for three years: it is a similarly-sized floorstander, fully-CNC-machined of aircraft-grade aluminum, and it retails for $38k.
In fact, at CES we will be introducing the Carmel line, which is a fully-CNC-machined all-aircraft-aluminum floorstander for merely $18k! I personally believe that this sets a new bar for manufacturing efficiency in our little industry.
I would also like to emphasize that, while Magico's machining is of genuinely high quality, it lacks some of the sophistication that YG Acoustics offers, including in the upcoming Carmel line. This includes:
1. 4-axis machining technology (Magico is limited to 3 axes): While Magico's external surfaces may be nicely curved, internally the enclosure is basically limited to rectangular shapes. This limitation causes acoustical problems such as standing waves, and/or the need for stuffing, which increases loss. YG Acoustics' 4-axis machining, on the other hand, allows the joining of surfaces at any angle, and thus the creation of far more complex (and better-optimized) inner geometries.
2. Tighter tolerances: While Magico justly pride themselves in achieving tolerances of +/-0.002", YG Acoustics routinely machines parts to +/-0.0008". This is better than double the accuracy, which allows us to optimize enclosures more precisely. The reason for YG Acoustics’ finer tolerances is the use of custom-made CNC equipment, rather than the generic machines that one would obtain when purchasing a shop. For instance, our custom-made CNC mill keeps the aluminum at a near-constant temperature to avoid thermal expansion, which is a feature not available in any series-production machine of that size.
3. In-house CNC precision-grinding (Magico is limited to polishing and bead-blasting): While both finishes are visually impressive, only YG Acoustics' use of a CNC precision-grinding robot allows for hardening the enclosure plates during the grinding process. Thus, only our finish is also acoustically beneficial, not just cosmetically pleasing.
4. Experience: Jonathan Valin has correctly commented that both YG Acoustics and Magico have been producing aluminum enclosures for years. However, there is a big difference between producing one-offs and actual manufacturing. YG Acoustics has, for seven years and counting, been continuously producing aluminum enclosures, at a rate of hundreds of cabinets per year. The expertise required to perform this is considerable: we employ a staff of full-time mechanical engineers, not just machinists, to run our production. All of this manifests itself in a manufacturing-quality that is without parallel in the audio industry.
I hope that these few points explain a bit of what we do at YG Acoustics, and what our unique capabilities are. Of course, please do not view my comments as any disrespect for Magico's fine new product offering - I am sure it is of high quality, and deserves attention. However, I still believe that when examining the details, there are considerable differences that make us the current leader of aluminum machining in the audio industry.
Best,
Yoav Geva
YG Acoustics
Dear Yoav, I deeply regret the fact that I'm not your customer. My price range goes " only " to the 10k ceiling, otherwise I'd be a happy owner of an ANAT Reference !!
The all-aluminun approach is very interesting. I wonder if GRANITE would accomplish similar results ...
Kol Hakavod !
The woofers appear to be changed as well, or at least painted with a golden brush...
Alon, certainly doesn't make it easy to be a consumer - this is not a critique at all as it is obvious he let's he passion drive him and not his sense of product management (again not meant to be critical). With this said, as a potential consumer and a big fan of the M5's you always wondered why (as JV states) 'he settled on birch-ply and heavy duty aluminum baffles'.
At this price point it doesn't appear the Q5s are intended to compete with the M5s, but a purchase i was about to make will certainly have to wait until after CES. The second question would be whether the competition or replacement for the M5s is not around the block.
This is a funny game we are in; i have tested many speakers and came to the happy solution of going with the M5s. My listening preferences have not changed and therefore, i should not be dissuaded, but, as human nature works, i would not like to purchase a product today if i know that an incremental change for the better (assuming that the Q5 stays true to Magico's sound) is available; moreover, if is is available at a lower cost.
JV, any idea on the dimensions of this speaker. i cannot tell if it is closer to a V3 or M5 in size?
bherlihy,
Kiddo, I don't know the dimensions of the Q5 and none are listed on the Magico "Q" site. BTW, I understand your dilemma about the M5s. I haven't heard the Q5s yet, but as I've said earlier, the M5s were, are, and remain the overall best loudspeaker I've heard and my references, setting a new standard (in my experience) for large multiway dynamics. I can't imagine that the Q5s will outdo the M5s (for $35,000 less, no less), BUT Wolf and Tammam have a helluva track record for one-upping themselves and if it turns out that the Qs are better than the Ms, you can rest assured that I will say so in my 2010 CES report. Contrary to some posts, I do not have a vested interest in the products that I extol in reviews or in Magico products in particular. I have a vested interest in reporting on the best, and I try, always, to call them as I hear them, consequences be damned. If something better than the M5s comes along (as I knew and said it inevitably would, sooner or later, although to be honest I thought and still think it would be MUCH later), well...then something better has come along and that's just the way it is. Once again, I'm not saying or predicting that the Q5 will outperform the M5. I'm merely reporting the news, which, however it turns out, is going to make for an exciting show.
Jon
Magico continues to be one of the more exciting speaker companies out there. Development of new models and in-house capabilities is very impressive. I'm a bit surprised that the new in-house MR-1 tweeter has been so quickly joined by a new tweeter design. When will we see a review of the V2 in TAS? And do you expect the introduction of a V3 version II with either of the new tweeters similar to the upgrade the Mini received, though that was with the woofer? Maybe even a Mini III with the new tweeter? Thanks JV for bringing the new scoop from Magico.
Look for my review of the V2 in Issue 202 due out early 2010.
Neil Gader Associate Editor The Absolute Sound
Thanks Neil. I thought I had read over the summer that Robert was reviewing the V2 and that we would see the review before year end. I may be mistaken. Anyway, I have enjoyed your V2 thread and look forward to your full review. I have heard the speakers with Spectral amps and they sounded fantastic. I hope you discuss amp/power matching and appropriate room size/placement.
Peter,
Yep. Magico is immensely exciting--and immensely irritating.
If you think YOU were surprised by the new dome tweeter, try standing in my shoes for the last few days. One of the genuine glories of the M5 is that MR-1 tweeter, which, as I noted in my M5 review, is closer to invisible than any other tweeter I've ever heard (or not heard). You're just not aware that it's there--as you ALWAYS are with cone drivers--until something that plays in its range comes along. Best blend of tweeter and midrange I've ever heard from any speaker, cone or planar. This new thing in the Q5 is gonna have to be hell on wheels to outdo it--or just keep up with it.
I have no idea whether Magico plans to update its V or M Series speakers with the new tweet. Hell, I had no idea Magico was going to introduce the Q5! Appearances to the contrary, when it comes to product introductions I'm not one of the Magico "inner circle" (damn it).
Jon
JV,
Thanks for the posts, I agree they are exciting and if it were my company, I would hope i would do the same as Magico is doing, i.e. always strive for the best. I also am intrigued enough that, schedule permitting, i might fly out to Vegas for a quick look. Having said that it doesn't make my choice any easier, just hope my deal the distributor is offering can wait four weeks as it is too difficult to make this decision before hearing more news on the Q5 (an $34,000 is nothing to sneeze at - that is really a substantial savings).
Jonathan, you repeatedly comment on the high cost of outsourceing to aluminum fab shops. (prohibitively expensive? not considering the prices charged for these products) I know this isn't cheap, but neither is purchasing a group of CNC cutting machines. Deep pockets through venture partners greatly helps, but with the economy what it is I would think getting a single CNC machine for prototyping and farming out the piece work would be less costly. But, I haven't run the numbers so its just a guess. I know a lot of machine shops would love to have the work.
Bobvin, my guess (if you have the money to buy it) is that there would be a benefit to own machinery like this given the ability to amortize the investment over a long life time (a milling machine is probably at least 10 years but more like 15 or 20 years). so from an accounting sense, this type of investment can make a lot of sense (again it means having the cash or the backers to pay for it) particularly on Magico's income statement. although a fab shop is also amortizing the similar product over a long period of time, they will probably look at their return on investment more in terms of cash flow and therefore price the work based on supply/demand rather than cost plus margin (i don't know these fab shops personally, just commenting on my experience from my industry). Either way, interesting move by Magico; i know that Wilson Audio also expanded and purchased their own CNC milling machine over the last year or two; which suggests that the long-term economics work to the extent that the shareholders and lenders believe in the sustainability of the company.
bherlihy, I agree -- the investment does speak to the confidence of the owner's and investor's belief in the longterm viability of the company. And their belief there are enough consumers willing to part with significant chunks of cash to purchase their products. Worldwide distribution certainly helps. Still, I am amazed there are as many companies as there are building speakers commanding such lofty prices. Regarding the Q, it seems like something to fill a gap in Magico's offerings between the V3 and M5. [soapbox on] Though the expiration of the Bush tax cuts would, at least in my case, reduce available funds enough that while the new Q might have been affordable this year, the V3 might be all I could afford next year! [/soapbox off]
JV:
Very interesting overview of the new technology. But maybe you should wait to hear it before you start beating off to it. :)
I know you are a big champion of the Magico brand. And their incredibly fast rise to prominence is astounding. But sometimes you act like a de facto PR person for them.
Does it freak you out that you could not afford to actually buy any of their speakers?
Heh-heh!
I'm not trying to act like a PR person, Hype. I'm just reporting a turn of events that took me (and a lot of other folks) by surprise. I really don't know how the Q5 will compare to the other Magicos I've heard and/or reviewed. But I'm looking forward to finding out. And, no, it doesn't freak me out that I couldn't actually afford to buy any of Magico's speakers. I couldn't afford to buy ANY of the stuff that I review (save at a reviewer accommodation price, which isn't really "buying" it, IMO). My job, as I think I already said, is to report on what's best. I truly enjoy doing that.
Jon
I meant no offense, I hope you know. I actually appreciate your passion for the brand. I really do.
And pertaining to affording the equipment, I only make that point to illustrate that is a shame that a tiny sliver of the
population will EVER get to own speakers like these or Wilson. I'ts actually sad.
And in defense of reviewers , buying on accommodation pricing IS buying. So what if it's 40% of retail, every other industry offers special pricing to those who work in the field. Doctors don't charge doctors for medical care.
My only qualm with equipment on "long term" loans and discount pricing is that it is really impossible to assign a real world value to something that way.
HyperSmasher, I think it is known that JV really likes the Magico's. I've auditioned them for a while and i really like them too. i think your comment is unnecessary (not trying to defend JV) it doesn't take this conversation anywhere. who cares what JV can and cannot afford, he seems to have a hell of a lot of nice equipment in his house and he has had it there for a long time and when it is gone, it seems to be replaced by some other really nice equipment, anyway, i think the M5 is now his reference speaker. These forums always seem to digress into questions of 'value' or 'best' which is really a wast of time as all of those things are subjective.
On another note, i sat in on a session with David Wilson last night to hear the new Sasha's. I agree with bobvin that is is somewhat surprising that so many speaker companies can survive in the market. But during this session, you do realize how many great products there, for me i was really impressed by the Sasha speakers. interesting to hear David Wilson's view on Aluminum vs. his X material for speaker cabinets. the measurements he presented would suggest that X material is way better for creating a neutral speaker in as simple of a manner as possible than by using aluminum. I had been auditioning the X2 for the past month and in comparing the X2 to the Sasha's i would say i was more impressed (relatively) to the Sasha's. I sometimes feel the X2 struggle at low volumes (i.e. they don't disappear at low volumes) and they move too much air at high volumes (at least for the room i have been auditioning in). Anyway, i was really impressed with the Sasha's, i think RH is auditioning them now and would be interested to see his impressions when ready, but overall i am still more impressed with the Magico M5's than either Wilson Audio - just my preference. Bobvin, to your point, there must have been 40 people there, and i am sure i would have been lynched last night if i stated i preferred the Magico, as these were all bigtime Wilson Audio fans. And for good reason, they are both mind-boggling great products, just my preference leans one way while all the others leaned another way. (Now don't say that to a dealer as they will state categorically one is the best product in the world and the others are far inferior). I guess there are enough people who lean towards a certain product to make the industry survive (again as surprising to me as it is to you).
bherlihy:
Point taken. See my reply to JV above.
PS...the British Sound rules!!!!
Wilson has been shamelessly promoting is X and/or M materials for years. What is basically a phenolic resin, typically used as "economical" countertops, is far from ideal material for a loudspeaker enclosure. Only in this industry, a prominent figure like Dave Wilson will have the nerves to publicly claim that a phenolic resin is more suitable then Aluminum as a loudspeaker enclosure.
louis, I find your comment a little disingenuous. phenolic resins can be mixed with all kinds of materials to achieve many different goals. Phenolic resins that are super heated create rocket nozzles and re-entry shields, resins saturated into felt create all kinds of sound adsorption and acoustical insulation products, etc. Just because phenolic resins are also used to make cheap countertops doesn't mean a chemical or structural engineer could not create a product meeting the precise specifications called for.
I will readily admit that high end audio has no lack of marketing tomfoolery, you can get a copywriter to produce flowery language for anything. This usually means a bit of truth-stretching which I'm sure will be found evident in marketing collateral from both Wilson and Magico, and everyone else in the business.
bobvin - You can mix phenolic anyway you wish, it will not change the fact that it is mainly resin. There is a reason they do not make airplanes or cars frames from phenolic resin. Structure stiffness vs. weight is way off to act as a proper structure for basically anything. Wilson’s Shasa campaign is both misleading and quite bogus from a scientific point. Showing some sorts of spectral-decay plots without any references to a context is totally useless. These issues have been discussed here, and in other forums before. But as bherlihy pointed out, most Wilson fans would not want to be confused with relevant facts, although, given the success Magico has been enjoying, I think it is changing.
louis, I understand what you are saying, but just as the aluminum magico frame must be extensively cross braced to provide the stiffness and structural integrity desired by the designer, the same can be done with the wilson cabinets. Having a brother who has spent his life building acoustic arch-top guitars, I've been exposed to several ways he can tap a piece of wood to hear its voice. I'm sure a slab of aluminum or a slab of phenolic resin material would also have a voice until sufficiently stabilized by appropriate design and bracing. (And I haven't found wilson specs to show they care much for lessening the overall weight of their speakers.) That said, I'm not a huge fan of Wilson, and have yet to hear Magicos (no dealer in Seattle). I have Avalons currently, but might be driving to Portland to audition Magicos in the near future. I'm very interested in hearing the V2 and V3. There's no way I could afford M5's.
If the new Q speaker turns out to equal or better the M5, there will be a torch and pitchfork committee of M5 owners storming Wolf's front door post haste.
oldguy,
I kinda agree with you.
Jon
JV, what is up with that “better then…” nonsense. Can’t they both be good in their own right without the constant “The best” drums you and your colleges are betting constantly. Why Porsche can have a 911 and a Cayman as well? I mean, the look of the Q5 is so different then the M5 that by that alone you have a big differentiation.
oldguy,
I've been thinking about your post, and to be fair I see two sides to this. Magico is an extraordinarily innovative company and I'm sure Wolf and Tammam feel that they need to deliver the highest-quality, highest-technology product they can make to the market as soon as they are able to do so, especially since the lower cost of this product is bound to make it more appealing in this economy (or any economy). OTOH, if you were one of the chosen who could afford to buy the M5 and did so, you'd probably be sitting on pins and needles (and, yeah, pitchforks) right now, awaiting a consensus judgment of how the new, much-less-expensive Q5 compares to your $89k purchase. I know I would be--and kind of am, in an "in absentia" sort of way.
Of course, the M5 is a great speaker regardless of what Magico comes up with at CES. Indeed, and yet again, let me reiterate that it is overall the most lifelike speaker I've yet heard in my home, with my music and my ancillaries and at the listening levels I typically listen at. If you're lucky enough to own an M5, you own a supremely great loudspeaker. Period. THE Q5 WILL NOT AND CANNOT CHANGE THIS.
HOWEVER, knowing audiophiles as well as I do, it would still be more than a little galling to me, were I an M5 owner, if Magico were to produce an equal-to or better-than product that costs less dough just a few short months after I purchased what I thought was its statement speaker. In the case of the Mini II, Magico addressed this issue by making a more-than-fair offer to upgrade the Mini I to Mini II status for exactly the difference in price between the I and II. The M5 is, I'm afraid, a different kettle of fish. I don't think there's an "upgrade" path for it. Which leaves us in the "interesting" situation of waiting to learn just how good the Q5 is going to be--with at least a handful of M5 owners out there hoping it ain't that good and a handful of other folks who were going to pull the trigger on purchasing the M5 hanging fire.
Of course, no one's heard the Q5 yet, outside of the Magico folks. So this whole thing could be a tempest in a teapot, although my gut feeling is that it won't be. My gut feeling is that the Q5 is going to be very special, indeed. BUT...my gut also tells me that there are likely to be two camps about the Q Series vis-a-vis the M Series Magicos. Past experience has shown me that aluminum-bodied speakers with metal tweeters (if, indeed, that dome in the Q5 IS metal, as it looks to be) aren't everybody's cuppa. I, for one, have had mixed feelings about the sound of the metal-enclosure loudspeakers I've reviewed and heard at shows. A big exception was, naturally, the Magico M6, although in retrospect (given my experience with the M5) I feel I overpraised the M6 in my CES report of several years ago. Frankly, the M5 is a better speaker, IMO, than the M6. Although metal boxes may have all sorts of theoretical advantages over wood or plywood or laminate ones, wood and certain laminates have, at least in my past experience, had a warmer, more gemutlich, more consonant-with-the-sound-of-live-music sound. I'm not trying to jinx the Q5--or prejudge it, pro or con. We will see--or hear--soon enough whether my gut feeling is well-founded or whether I'm full of crap. What I am saying is that in a way Mark is right (although he kind of missed the point of your post and my reply to it, which had less to do with audiophile sound quality and more to do with audiophile psychology): However they compare sonically, these speakers may be different enough (and not just cosmetically) to make them both viable options in the high-end marketplace. So let's put the pitchforks down until we've actually listened.
Jon
JV,
Thanks for the post. I agree with your points and as a person on the verge of purchasing a pair of M5's, I am now in a state of paralysis (i am well down the road on the purchase with a significant deposit made for my demo - i am sure my dealer would move them to a Q5 if i really pushed but that might take better part of a year to get in hand). I was speaking to my dealer last night and he was saying the same thing about me loving the M5 as JV was above, with his conclusion being, so who cares how good the Q5s are. This led to an interesting discussion very similar to what Mark is saying. Instead of Porsche we were using a Mercedes analogy, but let's stick with the Porsche one. I see the quandary as this: if it were an issue of owning a 911 (M5) and the Q5s being a Cayman, then great, you like see your brand put out good product. If that is the case, than i think the Magico marketing people misjudged human (audiophile) psyche and they should have called this the Q4 (although Q is different than M, the idea is it is slotted in the gap between V3 and M5). However, the fear, which I don't think Mark is seeing, is, what if it is a new version (next generation) of the 911. You have just bought the 911, which has only been out for a short period of time and wham, Porsche surprises everyone with a new version. You assume they have done this to 'fix' some issues with the 'old' version. The psyche impact is two-fold: one that there might be something 'better' out their from a manufacturer you really like; but you could and should get over that as the Porsche 911 at each iteration has always been a great product and so is the M5; but moreover, is your very expensive investment just depreciated more than it naturally would have (or more than you expected it to). This may not be as big a deal to audiophiles as it is to car owners; but as JV correctly states, it all plays into the audiophile psychology.
Having said that, my guess (and a completely uneducated one) is that this will slot somewhere between the V3 and M5 but that a Q6 will probably be on the horizon shortly which sits just above the M5 and below the M6. Just a guess. Again, no disrespect to Wolf as I think it is great that he pushes the envelop of innovation; but i do think that Oldguy is right and some of the Magico marketing team could have done a better job in presenting this new line.
quote: "so who cares how good the Q5s are.." Who cares? You gotta be kidding me. How about people that don't consider $35K chump change. How about folks who already own the M5s? It would be interesting to see just how many pairs of M5s they have sold. I'm betting that @ $89K, not that many. The Magico marketeers must have thought they could tap into a much larger market niche if they had a speaker in the $50K price range...not that $50K is chump change mind you, but that has to represent a larger consumer group. But when I read that those stiffly-braced Al enclosures clearly outperform the phenolic/resin based cabs plus that the Q has some super duper inverted tweeter, it sure sounds like the potential exists for the Q to better the vaunted M5. It seems that if they wanted to enter the $50K market they would have/should have "detuned" the new speaker or at least not hype the new improved driver angle. So the answer to "so who cares how good the Q5s are.." is obvious: anyone selling Magico products and M5 owners...unbelievable.
I would agree on anyone selling the M5. I think my dealer's point on the owner 'not caring' is that if you love what you have, than you should worry about what else is out there. i agree on that point, but think there is more to it. to your point, if i could have better for less (if that is the case) then yeah you feel ripped off, hence the point of my quandary.
Well I own a pair of M5's and if the Q5's are better and cost less then so be it. When I needed a set of speakers the Q5 were not available and I loved the M5's and still do. Nothing will change that! But I am not a person who is prone to upgrading components on a regular basis. This purchase was my first upgrade since BK (before kids) or 20 years and will likely be my last for another 20 years. My DAC is the only area I plan on upgrading when I finally feel there is some plateauing of technology there. But I suspect Magico is leaving the "M" (as in Magico) designation for their state of the art products and using other letters "V" and "Q" for their more "affordable" lines, just a guess.
jfkbike
i have no dog in this hunt - my speakers cost $5000 and i love them (emerald physics 2.3's). but i do think it's funny to say that this has something to do with the "audiophiles psyche". no it doesn't. if i bought a toaster at kmart and saw that the next day kmart got the same manufacturer's new version of the toaster at half the price, i would probable say 'well that sucks'. it wouldn't ruin my day or anything, but i would say it sucks. oh and it would ruin my day if it was a $50,000 toaster.
BTW, not to imply that the above poster's points were not well thought out. i agree with what was being said, i just think that it applies to all of us, not just audiophiles. it's just basic human nature.
Not so simple. I am sure you know why there are no BMW or Mercedes 4 series. The # 4 can't be used if you wish to sell anything in the far east. It is the number of death. 21st century still dark ages superstitions.
Mark S, you make a very good point that i completely overlooked; embarressing for me, particularly considering I am married to a Chinese (-American) so i should have known better. She wouldn't let me buy an apartment because the address had too many 4's in it!
Hence the Audio Research Reference 3 was followed by the Audio Research Reference 5 (no Reference 4); the Magico V3 was followed by the Magico M5 (no V4 or M4). The examples are endless.
It reminds me of the time when the V3 came out and people went "a bigger speaker with more bass for less money? that will kill the Mini" . Well, it didn't . Some prefer the Mini 2, some prefer the V3. We might have a similar situation with the Q5, except that the difference in money is quite substantial. I am *really* looking forward to CES :)
Jonathan, now that nervous M5's owners will be selling their speakers nice prices to order Q5's :-) , I have a question: did you hear the M5's with the ARC REF210?
No, Francisco, I haven't heard the M5 with the ARC REF 210. But I have heard it--at length--with the ARC REF 610T and that is one fabulous combination. I'm sure the 210 would do just fine, as well, although it's nice to have the extra power.
And though I know you're joking, I wouldn't be selling my M5 just yet. No one outside of Magico has even heard the Q5! Plus the M5 is a fantastic loudspeaker.
Jon
Perhaps this is an example of the efficiencies arising from the economies of scale? I once had an idea for an interventional radiology device, but I came down to earth once I discovered how much it would cost to prototype it and even develop it at a small level.
Maybe the Q5 "really" is worth twice its cost (meaning that it would have been dramatically more expensive had it gone the prior manufacturing route), and happens to be at its current price level because Magico has gone in-house for everything except the raw materials and driver skeltons? Of course we will never be privy to all the number-crunching behind the scenes.
If if does pan out, which it should since Alon and his staff have almost cornered the market of OCD (beating us wimpy radiologists), then this should be a cause for celebration. Certainly we're not talking about chump change here at 50K+, but would anyone be happier if the Q5 were, say, $100K?
Very well put, arooj. I have been thinking the same thing. Judging from the photos, these Q’s could have easily pass for $100K +. Especially if you compare them to other $80K + products. This may very well be a new “value” benchmark in high-end audio.
for full disclosure, I saved up and bought a pair of the V2s, which I really really wish were cheaper than they were, but I thought they were the best speaker under $20K. My kids play System of a Down, Kasabian, and (oh Lordy) Lady Gaga, and their friends now know that Magico can kick ass when required but can play delicately as well.
Value is in the eye of the beholder; I just hope that all speakers and systems of their ilk get the exposure they deserve. I consider myself lucky that I am only about an hour away from a very good dealer who's going to be doing a lot of homework on this speaker.
Found this at 6moons.com
"Magico LLC is proud to announce the unveiling of its newest loudspeaker, the Magico Q5, a 5-driver 4-way floorstander housed in a fully braced fully damped aluminum and brass hard-anodized enclosure [$54,000/pr]. The Q5 is the first Magico product to feature complete in-house control of all design and build variables. From the outside, the Q5's form is indicative of its function - pure and simple, rigid and unbiased. Although not significantly larger than our own V3, its total weight is nearly 400 lbs. Machined entirely from aluminum and brass at our new facility, the enclosure achieves a balance of mass and stiffness which had until now been prohibited by the cost associated with such an undertaking. Processed individually to ensure coverage of every face and edge, each outer surface is first polished then finished in our recognizable hard-anodized finish.
"The entire enclosure is an expression of all our past and present functional and aesthetic design choices. From the inside, the Q5 reveals the challenges involved in actually designing and assembling a properly built aluminum enclosure. The coordination between our engineers, machinists and technicians cannot falter due to the amount of interdependence between every component. The frame architecture alone is made from over 50 individually machined parts all of which must be aligned, fastened and assembled in a particular sequence. A single side wall contains nearly 100 threaded holes and before the baffle is even affixed, the cabinet itself already contains over 350 fasteners. A variance of greater than .002" can contribute to a 'tolerance stack' large enough to prevent an enclosure from being completed without being disassembled first. It takes nearly a week to assemble a pair.
"Continuing our pursuit of developing and implementing the world's finest loudspeaker drivers, we are also proud to introduce a new tweeter, the MBe-1™. Recent advances in break-up mode control of Beryllium diaphragms combined with our own MR-1™ motor system led to the development of the MBe-1. The result is a tweeter with significantly wider extension, lower distortion and greater power handling.
"Magico-designed Nano-Tec™ drivers complete the Q5 driver array with two 9” woofers, a 9” mid-bass unit and a 6” midrange to deliver the full frequency range. Numerous new developments have been made on other fronts as well, including a unique Bass Mechanical Resonance Cancellation (BMRC™) system which allows us to acoustically cancel break-up modes by precisely offsetting the bass drivers’ acoustical center and angle. Specifications are 88dB sensitivity, 4-ohm impedance, 32Hz – 50kHz frequency response, dimensions of 47" H x 21" D x 11.75" and weight of 387 lbs."
The Q5 is looking amazing! It looks like the Q5 is going to be either a 3-1/2 or 4 way design and its gonna weigh almost 400lbs each! As the great Keanu Reeves once said "..... whoh."
Hmm, 350 fasteners? I hope Loctite is one of the ingredients. I'd hate it if my $54K speakers got a screw loose. In my car any tiny rattle drives me nuts, so I hate to imagine where my brain would go if I even suspected some little screw had backed out a bit.
Won't happen. Magico uses high power air-wrenches to torque down each screw, effectively 'welding' them in place. Just like how the lugnuts on your cars wheels never loosen up, the only way they will ever loosen is if they are intentionally removed.
test
Anonymous1, as I mentioned in a prior post above, you can get copywriters create flowery prose for just about anything, e.g. "The coordination between our engineers, machinists and technicians cannot falter due to the amount of interdependence between every component." What the hell is that -- other than a sentence that sounds amazing and yet tells me absolutely nothing. Campaign speech writers and marketing copywriters! Without ever having heard a Magico speaker, I appreciate the designers efforts and from all reports build quality and resulting sound of Magico speakers is something I intend to experience for myself. But the sentence noted is jibberish - of course it takes coordination to design and build a great speaker, but that is what engineers do, they create the plan. The machinist create the parts to match the tolerances specified, and the technician builds the whole thing up. Magico's got nothing on Ferrari or Boeing when it comes to coordination and interdependence.
I look forward to reading the reviews and hearing the Qs for myself. Results are all I really care about, I don't care if there's 3 or 3 million fasteners. How does it sound?
I'm waiting for some speaker to be built of unobtanium™. They use it a lot in bicylce parts these days :-) to attach the gonkulator™ to the dopicator™.
“The machinist create the parts to match the tolerances specified, and the technician builds the whole thing up.”
Show how much you understand manufacturing… If it was so simple, we would have not lost the shuttle, twice.
“How does it sound?”
How it sounds to whom?? There are those who would like it and those who will not. I bet that they would sound dreadful to you. Talking about this is completely useless. Talking about these speakers phenomenal construction methods is not. Undermining Magico efforts to put these speakers out there is rather sad… That is why we keep seeing the same old same speakers built over and over again. Why bother innovating if so few bother to notice and so many rush to ridicule.
Mark, it is called "process" and the fact it is a complicated process doesn't mean the speakers will be better than another using a less complicated process. It just increases the chances for error. And when I say "how does it sound" I don't care what it sounds like to you, unless you make your living comparing speakers and have an extensive base of experience from which to make subjective and objective comparisons. (And if I learn something about which qualities you judge to be more 'right' than other qualities.) If I like them I'll consider buying them after a long comparative review "process" of my own.
My post had more to do with making fun of marketing vocabulary than any ridicule of Magico. Nowhere did I undermine Magico other than poke fun at the who-ha the copywriters come up with.
Why do you think the speakers would sound dreadful to me? Do you know anything about me? Or my listening tastes? Or my equipment? Or my room?
bobvin,
Do not know much about you, but I can't help noticing the polarizing views on Magico sound. How is it possible that some thinks it is the best thing they ever heard and some thinks it is merely a hype or worst. My conclusion had let me to believe that many determine the "sound" before they even hear it. Once that decision has been made, it does not really matter how it really sounds. Looked to me from your post, that you may be one of these people. Please except my apologies if that is not the case.
I too have noticed there are some who really drink the Magico kool-aid, others are convinced their favorite brand is superior so all others are inferior. I am not so dogmatic. At times I am too anal about making a buying decision, other times I am too whimsical and part too quickly with my hard-earned $$. I'm sure when I drive from Seattle to Portland to audition the Magico brand the dealer will hope I'm in the whimsical mood.
I came back to the high end just a couple years back, so my knowledge base and experience is small compared to some who've been enjoying this passion for decades. I first chose mid-priced ARC gear because that is what I owned in the late 70's, but have since moved up to Ref3 and Ref110. I enjoy vinyl. Clearaudio table and Benz Ruby 3 cartridge. Avalon Ascendents are, IMHO, the best value in the Avalon lineup, but I'm considering a step up. Avalon makes great speakers, so too does Wilson though I've not ever been 'moved' by them. There are so many speaker choices, and until you get' em home, with your own gear, with your own favorite cuts, with the lights dimmed and good glass of red, its really hard to pull the trigger with the lofty prices of the likes of Magico. But, from what I've learned about Magico's linear response and RPT, I am very, very curious to audition them.
If someone posts their opinions regarding the sound of any speaker, not just Magico, it seems logical that the posts that would garner the most credibility would come from posters who have actually heard them...and in a controlled environment, not at a trade show or such. I have listened to the V3s extensively and posted my thoughts here once before (mistake). I would love to hear the M5s. Heck I'd love to just see them up close. They are stunning aesthetically and I'm sure sound superb. But....the V3s, as good as they are....in my opinion...have a rather narrow sweet spot and the low end, although fast and accurate enough, sounded a bit lightweight for my tastes. If Magico solved those "issues" with the M5 then it must be something pretty special. At the $90K price point there are several outstanding speakers out there and one should hear them all, even if it involves airfare, before pulling the trigger. The point is moot in my world....90 grand for a pair of speakers?? I can't even imagine.
Thanks for your comments... particularly regarding the V3's which would be more in my affordable zone than Q's or M's. Most of the listening I've done over the years has been with a speaker that is less than "weighty" in the low end. I've come to understand that most of those speakers that have more to offer (objectively) in the low end do so typically by way of a spike within that range (ala Wilson). Through comments like yours and objective measurements, I expect the Magico's to be similar to what I'm used to. But, the extra umph in the bottom is, to me, somewhat desirable if it doesn't muck up the whole balance.
I was at a performance just last Sunday with some Japanese musicians playing a huge drum, shorter and a little fatter than a 55 gal barrel - and no doubt there was visceral weight and slam. I would not want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a speaker that wasn't able to get very, very close to reproducing that sound. (Which, technically, was probably more mid-bass than the deep low end.) At Christmas mass I'll have a chance to hear the big organ, where the deep low end really is heard (and felt), but I can't say I have much in my music collection that goes there. I'm curios to hear how Magico's handle the overcooked double bass on the Alison Krauss/Robert Plant "Raising Sand" CD. In my room, with my speakers, that overcooked bass gets pretty muddy - but is it the recording, my room, or my speakers?
NOTE*
The tweeters are not inverted/concave. At least not in this picture.
http://www.magico.net/magicoq/images/magicoq03.jpg
Good catch (as we say in the editing biz)! You are correct, sir! They appear to be domes in this pic, although they still look metallic to me. I've corrected the blog to reflect this.
Definitely metallic (I think they said beryllium). ;^)
I can't wait to hear them at CES. Do you know what room they will be in?
Kitty,
I'll find out. I'm told Magico will be using its own high-res server and, possibly, a Tape Project tape deck (for all us analog hounds) for sources. I don't know the amp and preamp yet for sure, but I do know the candidates and they are all stupendously good, so the Q5 is definitely going to be played via world-class ancillaries. That doesn't mean the hotel room is going to play ball, of course, but Magico has done a helluva job in the past taming room issues at shows and since the speaker isn't gigantic I have ever reason to expect it will do so again.
Jon
Don’t know about the Magico sound, but these guys sure know how to take photos.
Alon Wolf is a superb photographer.
Everything Wolf says or does is superb? What an amazing man!
Now, now. No need for sarcasm. Wolf IS a superb photographer; that's a fact.
It will not be simple to pull these shots. I know, since I do that for a living. They look like the were taken by a professional photographer in a professional studio. I would be surprise if it is done in-house by Magico
Magico has issued a press release that answers some unanswered questions that were asked in earlier threads.
First, the dimensions of the Q5. It is 47" high by 21" deep by 11.75" wide and weighs 387 pounds (per speaker).
Second, its driver complement comprises two 9" Nanotec woofers, one 9" Nanotec mid/bass, one 6" Nanotec midrange, and, yes, it uses a newly developed 1" berylium dome tweeter called the MBe-1. Claimed frequency response is 32Hz-50kHz. Claimed sensitivity is 88dB (but since the Q5, like every other Magico cone speaker, is a 4-ohm load, that claim is misleading--actual sensitivity is probably 85dB).
Third, the MSRP is $54,000/pair.
Fourth, Magico will be showing the Q5 in Suite 35-207 of the Venetian Towers.
First the pictures (audio porn) and now the story to go with it. I'm gett'n all worked up :-)
I should close my company and get a government job, thats where all the money is these days. Maybe in the transportation dept. with those $170K salaries. (though that would only be enough $$ to buy these speakers if you lived in a shack -- or had a job in the audio press!)
Magico's new in-house capabilities raises an interesting question: will the new CNC machines enable them to produce and then sell the V2, V3 or Mini with aluminum enclosures (and modifications) for less money than the birch counterparts. Or the likelyhood of better performance for the same money, as this thread raises/implies? The possibilities for different versions of these speakers bogles the mind. The weight issue will become important. I'm investing in lolli-columns for my eighteenth century suspended floors.
I actually saw a few photographs by awolf in a Leica book or on their web site once. I think you can find his work on Zenfolio. I am pretty sure it is the same awolf we are talking about.
I hope they make a Q Mini at about $12 - $15k as I could use one of those!
jfkbike
First, the dimensions of the Q5. It is 47" high by 21" deep by 11.75" wide and weighs 387 pounds (per speaker).
Second, its driver complement comprises two 9" Nanotec woofers, one 9" Nanotec mid/bass, one 6" Nanotec midrange, and, yes, it uses a newly developed 1" berylium dome tweeter called the MBe-1. Claimed frequency response is 32Hz-50kHz. Claimed sensitivity is 88dB (but since the Q5, like every other Magico cone speaker, is a 4-ohm load, that claim is misleading--actual sensitivity is probably 85dB).
how does these numbers compare to the M5 ?
Good question - the stated range for the M5 is 22Hz - 40kHz, and JV's review and frequency plots state that it does plumb the lower depths very nicely. Dunno if the 32-50k FR of the Q5 is with the same set of +/- dB tolerances (probably true), so maybe this will be the primary differential between the two.
The sensitivity is identical for the two.
Also the M5 has two sets of rear binding posts; no firm info on the Q5.
The Q5 tweeter is new and apparently is more custom-built/modified than the MR-1 ring-radiator tweeter in the M5. What its original "derivation" is not clear to me, but I'm sure someone will find out.
The M5 has two 6" Nanotec "midbass/midrange" drivers. The Q5 has one 6" "midrange" and one 9" "midbass" driver. IMO, this is one of the big strengths of the Magico "sound," which I interpret as quick, well-defined, deep, but nonexaggerated bass. What they do here is going to be really interesting and maybe controversial.
The M5 and Q5 each have two 9" Nanotec woofers, with the one closest to the floor angled slightly inferiorly. The crossover
point for each woofer in each speaker might be different from its companion (sorry I can't reference the source of this off the top of my head).
From the angled picture on the Magico website, I don't see the "hockey puck" type retainers in the rear, which are present on the V2, V3, and M5 -- necessary for the coupling of the aluminum baffle to the frame. Very cool. So aesthetically this may be more appealing, although I have no complaints about this appearance on my V2s.
Big hint: recommended power for the M5 = 50-1000 W, for the Q5 = 50-250 W.
So the Q5 is not going to supplant the M5 (whew, we can all relax now. Go ahead and treat yourself).
clavil,
I don't think we're going to be able to judge how these two speakers compare simply by looking at the "numbers." Yeah, the M5 (which has a somewhat bigger enclosure) may reach a little deeper into the bass, although I'm not at all sure of this yet. And, yeah, the Q5 with its berylium dome tweeter may go a little higher in the treble. So what? The big question is whether the Q5 comes close to, equals, or surpasses the M5 in its areas of greatest strength, which, IMO, are superb octave-to-octave coherence and smoothness, invisibility as a sound source, exceptionally low distortion, and extraordinary realism top-to-bottom. It will also be interesting to see how the Q5 handles some of the M5's "weaknesses," such as low-level resolution at low SPLs, dynamic range and scale on the p-to-pppp side of the spectrum, and transparency to sources. These are three specific areas where other, less expensive speakers are as good as or a little better than the M5s. Looking at specs and measurements won't help us here; only close listening to familiar music can begin to answer these key questions.
Jon
Very well said, JV. I wish I wrote those words. I hope you end up with Q5 serial number 00001 to help make these distinctions. You really ought (ahem) to be have 'em both around to make a decent comparison ;-)
BTW, does anyone know if it's a photographic "trick" or reflection, or is there a genuine golden-tinge to the Nanotec cones? (please, no golden ear puns..... sorry).
Given Alon Wolf's no compromise nature I believe there is in fact a huge chance that the M5 will be under siege by its brother. I don't see him as someone who will deliberately engineer "faults" into a product, especially one that by the looks of it have what looks like identical driver size configurations and similar internal volume. All that birch ply may be bigger from the outside but the stiffness of the Aluminum means they may need less material to achieve the same stiffness with less volume.
Time will tell. I guess.
How come none of the Magico speakers have a protective grill/cover? Does that diminish sound quality? I guess its not a speaker for those with kids around the house or those who don't lock up their system in a room for only a few with access to a high quality system.
Sam - my kids are 14, 12, and 7, and even with friends over are too intimidated to even think of getting near the V2s. Smaller fry may have to be cordoned off, however.
Magico must be doing something right. My dealer just informed me that he's ready to place his Q5 demo order.
Arooj, they are intimidated by you or the speakers...?lol
I am not surprise to read yoavgeva (YG) post, beating his own drums, again. I can’t help but sensing a total panic in his post. This is hilarious.
Dear Mark S,
I am a bit puzzled by your comment – it seems that you can’t find any fault with the actual content of my message, so you prefer to just say that there is “panic” in my post. However, I fail to find such “panic” in my informing the forum’s readers of a new product that my company is launching. This is exactly what this forum is all about – free discussion and information.
Now, if you wish to discuss the content of my message and enter a productive discussion, please feel free to ask any question that you wish. I am happy to address any concern, which you obviously seem to have.
Sincerely,
Yoav Geva
YG Acoustics
"This is exactly what this forum is all about – free discussion and information." This my friend is a Magico neighborhood. Proceed at your own risk.
LOL! Good one! Thanks, you just made my day with that one.
Feel free to shoot me down YG or Magico or JV, etc., but I like the V2, V3, Mini II, M5 (haven't heard the M6 or Ultimate II) because you're not putting all your eggs in one basket, as far as the enclosure goes. You minimize the cabinet's quirks and individual resonances and ringing of one material by utilizing multiple materials. I think utilizing wood adds something beneficial to the sound, but with Magico's aluminum front baffle you get the best and stiffest platform to install these large moving objects (woofers). Now, aluminum might be great for keeping the woofers stable, but the speakers I've heard that are made out of the material completely, have a "sound" to them that I prefer less than the "sound" of wood as part of the cabinet material. This is my personal preference, perhaps I'm wrong on paper and in the lab measurements, but as I said earlier, putting all your eggs in one basket isn't always a good thing. Wilson Audio came up with some fluff as to why aluminum is a poor cabinet material, perhaps those arguments are applicable here. Maybe aluminum is a great cabinet material for bass, but when mid or high frequencies occur, it becomes a poor material because that particular frequency is the ringing point of the aluminum? It seems silly to me that one material would be non ringing and perfect for the entire frequency range, maybe I'm wrong?
I'm anxious to hear the Magico Q regardless. I think Magico makes great speakers and offer a voice that's hard to fault when you hear them set up and driven properly. I hope they pull through for us on the new Q...
Dear Mr. Geva,
I also find you post somewhat disingenuous. Some of the points you make do not quite make sense, and some are simply deceitful.
1. According to Magico web site, they are using 5-axis machines to cut some of their parts. You really do not need more than a 3-Axis machine, to cut any of the surfaces you are cutting. Last I have checked, your enclosures were all simple geometry shapes, unlike Magico 3-D face plates which are much more complex to machine.
2. As a mechanical engineer, I completely failed to see the reason you would have a .0008" tolerances to basically build a square box? If you do, you are wasting tremendous amount of resources! Change your machinist. It will help you be more competitive.
3. " CNC precision-grinding robot allows for hardening the enclosure plates during the grinding process" Again, you are completely misrepresenting what is basically a simple process every finishing house can do. Any sanding or grinning changes the "hardness" of a material. Common, and in your application completely meaningless.
4. You present as comparable your Kippod to the Q (Info taken from your web site and Magico PR). The Q is almost twice the size and 3 times the weight of your Kippod. In fact the Q is heavier and bigger than your Anat Reference speakers selling for almost twice the price of the Q. When it comes to Aluminum, what value proposition you are talking about?
One more thing, since I have your attention. Since I spend half of my time in Japan, I find your claim to be one of the "only foreigner" to ever win a Grand Prix award in Japan both deceptive and racist. As I am sure you notice, 90% of the Grand Prix award winners are " foreigner". You know, companies like Wilson, Avalon, B&W etc.. In fact, Magico has won it 3 times already (You did only once). Not sure how you get away with all the BS you put on-line and in your ads. I guess we, audiophiles, are so dumb that we deserve such campaigns as the one you shamelessly promote.
Mention Magico in a blog or thread and people come out of nowhere, or everywhere. Thank you Roy Pan for adding some perspective and counterpoint to Mr. Geva's insertion in this Magico Q5 blog. For those of us who don't have enough experience or knowledge to question these claims, it is most interesting and informative.
Dear Mr. Ayer,
I agree 100% - it is very good that readers raise different views. I am proud to be one of those readers, and thankful that I have a platform to express my opinions on this forum. With that in mind, I would greatly appreciate it if you read my response to Mr. Pan below. I believe that it clarifies some interesting points, which may be of interest to you.
Best,
Yoav Geva
YG Acoustics
Roy,
What speakers do you presently own?
Dear Mr. Pan,
All I can say to your post is wow! I doubt that you are really a mechanical engineer, since if you really were one like you claim to be, you would not make so many basic errors. Your mistakes are very unusual for someone with your purported background to make, which makes me question that you really are who/what you say you are...
Please allow me to address some of your points, for the benefit of readers who might be impressed with your assertive tone and thus miss your lack of underlying data. I will, in order to keep this discussion meaningful, ignore your claims that I am a racist and the ones that judge speakers by their weight in lbs/kgs (speakers are not potatoes, you know), and focus on the ones that raise relevant points:
1. If you look at the picture on Magico's website where they mention the use of a 5-axis machining center, you will immediately realize that it is obviuosly a mistake made by their marketing guy rather than a real statement made by their engineer, who I am sure is a competent professional in his field. The machine used, which is readily apparent by looking at its layered milling lines, is a vertical 3-axis CNC. In a 5-axis machining center, tilting is always used to reduce the amount of material that needs to later be removed in the finish-milling process. Clearly, the layers are the result of 3-axis milling without tilting. If you were really a mechanical engineer you would recognize this immediately, as it is truly one of the most basic things that one would learn when dealing with any type of machining.
2. You seem to be unfamiliar with YG Acoustics' internal geometry. Please let me point out that your assumption is wrong: in fact, there are numerous features that use 4-axis milling inside YG Acoustics speakers. These would be impossible to machine using only 3-axis technology. I stand firm by my claim here - the fact that YG Acoustics uses 4-axis technology, whereas Magico is limited to 3 axes, is a very real advantage of ours, which allows for enclosures with any internal angles desired, whereas Magico's fancy (and I must say - quite attractive) front curves mask an interior which is mostly rectangular.
3. Your assumption that tighter tolerances are meaningless is wrong, and my guess is that it also results from the fact that you are unfamiliar with the internal geometry of YG Acoustics speakers. In fact, there are several important things that we can perform using our tighter tolerances, which would otherwise not be achievable. The assembly is far more complex than a "square box" like you describe, so please avoid making assumptions. Furthermore, claiming that tighter tolerances are meaningless, without your having thorough knowledge of the type of assembly used, is a sign that you lack experience in your purported field.
4. As for grinding - here I am sorry to say that, while I don't wish to be rude, you seem to lack knowledge on the subject. Precision-grinding is a term used to describe only processes that have comprehensive control over temperatures and pressures, and not to describe other sanding/grinding/polishing operations. The results achieved are very different and far superior. If the results were the same, then companies that specialize in this process such as Kuhlmeyer (which is the manufacturer of our robot), as well as other manufacturers of such equipment like Studer and Gerber, would have no reason to exist. After all, their products cost many times more than other finishing equipment.
All in all, you raise some interesting points which I am grateful to have the opportunity to answer, but mix them with baseless statements that really make me doubt that you are a mechanical engineer.
I understand that you are a Magico fan from your other posts, which is absolutely fine by me. After all, Magico is a fine competitor, and none of YG Acoustics' advantages that I have pointed out detracts from that fact. However, please do not try to impress forum readers with assertive statements when you lack the appropriate knowledge. The goal of this forum is to provide people with accurate information, ask and answer questions, and freely exchange ideas. When you make such statements all you do is confuse readers, and I doubt that this does any good for anyone in the industry, including even the brands that you are promoting.
Sincerely,
Yoav Geva
YG Acoustics
Dear Mr Geva,
I have no questions or concerns in regards to your products. I have seen them and heard them more than once. I think the Roy has presented well the sentiment I have for you and your company.
It will be interesting to hear what Magico can do with an all Aluminum box since up to now, I never heard an all Aluminum loudspeaker that I liked but I do suspect that Aluminum had nothing to do with that.
It is amazing to see this blog - Roy Pan and Mark S!
Both of you have been since exposed as actually being Alan Wolf of Magico in a different blog, and when I now look back it is so obvious - you attack in nearly-identical posts everyone who disagrees with Magico, and create artificial hype around your products. I was genuinely interested in how come Magico has such a "cult following", just to see now that it is all generated by the company's own employees... How disappointing and how embarrassing.
Mr Geva,
I will ignore your insults. Your passive aggressive style would not work here. You have written a long reply with absolutely zero “real” evidence to any of your claims. I will invite you to post a photo of your “internal geometry” and explain to us why it is so special that it needs a 4-axis CNC machine to produce. At the same time you can explain to us all why a tolerance of .0008” is necessary to build that “internal geometry”. Precision-grinding is a common process usually used in applications that a loudspeaker box would have nothing to do with. Any of the readers on the forum are welcome to Googol the “term” and see what comes out. As I said before lots of empty big and misleading words. Nothing new from YG. BTW, I can’t help but noticing you are not commenting on my last few points. A bit difficult to “spin” simple facts that can easily be verified by everyone…?
Mr. Pan,
First, I will be very happy to post an image of a sample part that requires 4-axis machining. Please excuse my ignorance, but I have no idea how to post images on this forum. If you explain to me how to do so, I will post one immediately. I assume that once I post such an image, you will retract your aggressive statements, and be a big enough man to admit that you were wrong.
As for tolerance - here is a fine example: as you can see from any photo of our speakers online, the front baffle of the YG Acoustics Anat Reference II Main Module is constructed of two parts - a rectangular main baffle which houses the two mid-woofers, and a round sub-baffle for the tweeter. The way that these two parts fit together is pretty cool, if I may say so myself, and requires extremely tight tolerances. Here goes:
Any gap between these two parts would generate diffraction problems. Therefore, the tweeter's sub-baffle is machined to have an outer diameter that is slightly larger (by less than 0.001") than the hole in which it is designed to fit (which is in the main baffle). Then, it is cooled down in a freezer, up to the point where it shrinks enough to fit into the hole in the main baffle. After assembly, the tweeter's sub-baffle warms back up to room temperature, and the connection between the two parts is smooth, without any gaps. Thanks to this, there are no diffraction issues whatsoever. Another advantage is that the connection is very strong this way.
This is just one example of a process that requires extremely tight tolerances, which YG Acoustics is able to accurately perform thanks to its custom-made CNC machinery. With a looser tolerance of 0.002" like the one that Magico offers, which is otherwise fine for most applications, such a perfected solution would not have been possible.
This is a real YG Acoustics advantage, and now that I have given you a specific example, I expect you to retract your statement regarding tolerances. I hope, again, that you are a big enough man to admit that you were wrong here too.
As for your last point from your previous message - I do not like to enter into personal debates, but since you really insist, here it is: the second that you called me a racist, you lost any respect as far as I am concerned. My family went through the holocaust because of real racism, which you seem to know nothing about. Your accusing me of such a terrible trait is inexcusable, and I expect your apology in this regard.
Sincerely,
Yoav Geva
YG Acoustics
Interesting read. Looks like the subject has been pick up by some people on:
http://ultrahighendforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1202&sid=16a06ba04d00aa...
Mr. Geva,
So you go through all these problems only to make sure there will be a smooth transition between these two pieces? Have you thought about machining the entire baffle out of one piece? You know, like Magico does?? Are you depending your results on " room temperature"? And what room will that be? With the tolerances you are talking about, few degrees will change the gap. That may explain the gap you do have between these two parts. It is big enough to acutely be seen in some of your photos.
Sorry to hear about your family, but I still can't read the "unheard-of for foreigner" in any other way but bigotry. What precisely are you trying to say? BTW, my wife is the one who pointed it out to me. She is Japanese. Nevertheless, a slick way for you to avoid answering my question. You have been trained well!
Mr. Pan,
I am sorry to see your response which, rather than discussing data, is again filled with baseless accusations, with a total lack of underlying information. You make very assertive statemens, which again make me question your being a mechanical engineer as you claim to be. Since I work with mechanical engineers every day, I can tell you that they tend to be very studied, careful people who first make sure that they have all of their facts straight, and only then make conclusions. You, on the other hand, make wild assumptions that ignore simple facts that someone of your purported technical background should have immediately caught on. Very strange...
You have challenged me on numerous points so far, which I am actually grateful for, as it has allowed me to explain many features of YG Acoustics products for the benefit of the forum's readership. I have addressed each of your concerns with a comprehensive and professional answer, so I believe that it has been a productive discussion. However, for the past several messages, whenever I address an issue to the point that you clearly see that your accusations were completely off-base, you cannot bring yourself to admit that I actually may have a point here. Instead, you ignore the subject, and attack in a different direction. This gives me the feeling that rather than seeking a mutually beneficial debate, you are only seeking to argue.
At this point, therefore, I have decided that this will be my last post on this thread. I am not a person who enjoys argument for the sake of argument, and feel that this debate is entering the point of being useless. I believe that I have provided you with all of the useful information that I could.
As per your points, which I am addressing now for the last time:
Your point about machining the two parts together is interesting, but unfortunately the two pieces of the YG Acoustics Anat Reference II Main Module's baffle cannot be machined of one piece, due to sophisticated internal features of those parts. These require milling "inside the material", and therefore necessitate an access point, which can only be achieved if the part is made of two pieces.
Your comment about room-temperature is one where, again without the desire to be rude, I must say that it points to the fact that you lack experience in your purported field. It doesn't matter what room-temperature is - all that matters is that the tweeter's sub-baffle is cooled down to a much lower temperature than the main baffle, so that it shrinks enough to fit inside it. Once it warms back up to room-temperature after assembly, regardless of which temperature this might be, it will be one and the same temperature for both the main baffle and the tweeter's sub-baffle, so they will fit tightly together. This is an extremely common practice in precision-manufacturing which, had you really been a mechanical engineer as you claim, you would have surely encountered multiple times in your purported carreer. It requires very accurate machining, and I therefore stand firm by my claim that YG Acoustics' tighter machining tolerances than Magico's (YG Acoustics offers +/-0.0008" whereas Magico only offers +/-0.002") is a real advantage, which manifests itself, among other things, in this advanced solution.
I can't believe, though, that we are arguing whether YG Acoustics' superior precision in manufacturing is a good thing. What is your point, that it is a bad thing to have more precise manufacturing than the competition !?!? We have purchased a custom-made machine which is superior to a competitor's, and that's all that there is to it. We are thus able to provide a tighter machining tolerance, without increasing manufacturing cost BTW, since this state-of-the-art, custom CNC machine is already at our factory and was designed for tight tolerances anyway. We are proud to utilize its full potential to offer our customers superior YG Acoustics products. Should we not take pride in being able to offer tight tolerances, especially after I have now given you a specific example of where this is useful !?!?
As per your other point - your comment about a gap in the baffle of the YG Acoustics Anat Reference II Main Module is mistaken - the "gap" that you supposedly see is just a transition between lengthwise grinding lines on the main baffle and radial ones on the tweeter's sub-baffle. I can assure you that the transition between the two parts is completely gap-free, and invite any readers who want to see it for themselves to visit us at the upcoming CES 2010 trade-show. By the way, since I am now stopping to post on this thread, you may also ask me there questions on any other subject. I am always happy to answer.
Last but not least, regarding your personal attack and accusation that I am a "racist" - you have still not apologized for accusing me of such a terrible trait, which anyone who knows me will tell you is the pure opposite of who I am. I really have no problem justifying any claim made in my advertising, including regarding the Japanese audio Grand Prix which I am proud to have won. But if you want me to answer any question, attacking me personally and accusing me of racism is really not the way to get me to enter a debate with you. Feel free at any point to retract your statement and apologize for the personal attack, and I will be not only happy, but also honored to address your concern.
It is amazing to me that in our industry I am personally attacked, and accused of basically being a terrible person, when I have been nothing but respectful towards all readers of this and other forums. My only "crime" is manufacturing a good product, which you seem to be very afraid might actually be a viable competitor to what you currently own. You seem to be afraid of losing your entire sense-of-self if you accept the fact that there are other high-quality manufacturers out there besides Magico. Please understand - no one is saying that Magico is a bad company; they are a fine competitor, and I would not claim otherwise. But is it so much to ask that you open your mind to the possibility that there are other viable companies out there !?!?
Sincerely,
Yoav Geva
YG Acoustics
Mr. Geva,
Cut your losses and move on sir. You are in a whizzing contest with a mephitis mephitis.
Dear Mr Geva,
Sorry I hurt your feeling. Nothing personal, but it is a bit hard to separate the YG from the YG. You have a lot of nerves to show up here, on what is basically a competitor new product introductory blog and declare yourself the authority on machining. Then, when challenged you cry out for compassion and mercy? You have written hundreds of words and said absolutely nothing. You didn't (couldn't) explained or show, why your claims to "superior precision" are of any importance to our subject. My ears have definitely missed that point listening to your products which, I must say, sound very similar to your personality (Sorry again for being "personal"). If your internal structure is so precise and unique as you claim, why have you not posted some data and photos of it? You know, like Magico does. BTW, perhaps you forgot that there are CAD drawing you provided to Stereo Sound magazine that shows your "internal structure". Or should I say the "lack of" one. Quite an ordeal you have created to basically build an empty box with a small shelve in it
Roy Pan,
I think you should give your real name and tell us who you are.
If you are not able to do it, all your words will loose any credit.
Unlike you clavil, I do use my real name and I am "verified" as well, always has. After 30 years in the hobby and few engineering degrees I have developed a pretty good BS detector that makes some of these audio companies, in particular speaker manufacturer, looks somewhat awkward. My credit is of no importance to anyone. People who want to buy the nonsense some of these companies put out will buy it regardless of any factual significance. That is one of the biggest problem in high-end. Always has been, and probably always will. YG had the stage. If you can find one "factual" importance to audio out of all his mambo jumbo, please feel free to point it out. And yes, you should do some due diligence on your own instead of just taking other people words verbatim.
Roypan, whatever your background, it sure seemed to me you were taking some personal shots at YG. This was a pretty civil discourse up to where you started in on YG. His post was pretty much ignored until you chimed in. Whether he should have posted in this thread or not is debatable, but most people simple blew off his comments as irrelevant to their interest in the new Magico design. Wish that you'd done the same.
Bobvin,
Not quite the case, YG has challenged few other comments made on his post before I joined in. Once you start it is hard to stop. And you are right, this is all noise, nothing else. Sorry if I caused you any discomfort.
I am afraid it was all my fault. I was the one that pointed YG, somewhat awkward, post to the forum. In any case, I do not view such a tactless “civil” post as the one YG posted as a civil thing to do. Yes, it is true that RP is a bit of a brute, but I have to agree with him on the passive-aggressive nature of YG conduct. In any case, I think that there were a few interesting points raised. All in all a pretty good read.
Its all water under the bridge... I wish Santa could fit some new Magicos into the sled and drop 'em off at my place.
Roy Pan, where in the world are you located?
Do you really want to play these games?
Mark S
I suspect Alon Wolf would not interject himself in a thread concerning the introduction of a new model of loudspeaker by YG Acoustics and go on about how his speakers are better. It's simply bad form.
YG very good speakers. In Japan. Grand prix awards for many companies. Not just Japanese! 2009 winners JM lab, Magico, Dynaudio and more. Sorry for my English. Thank you.
"I suspect Alon Wolf would not interject himself in a thread concerning the introduction of a new model of loudspeaker .."
Who will??
Just to show some fairness and balance, a positive regarding Magico. I don't own Magicos but have heard the V3s and liked what I heard. Recently in my dealer's showroom, I had the opportunity to see the V3 innards. During a recent open house, they were pushing the V3s rather hard with what likely were MAC 1201 monoblocks and ended up blowing both midrange drivers. This was no fault of Magico mind you, just some over-zealous listeners. Anyhow, I spent some time snooping around the V3s, given them the knuckle-rapping test and peering into the driverless midrange opening. The rap test convinced me that the cabinets are indeed inert with no apparent ringing or hollowness whatsoever. Looking inside revealed very thick, dense sponge-like material affixed to the cabinet sides. The workmanship was pristine. I also noticed that they employ a solid wire with some sort of transparent insulation. I'm sure this is something fairly exotic. All in all, these speakers are extremely well made so kudos to Alon Wolf and co.
As an aside regarding the internal wiring in speakers...all speakers not just Magico. We spend megabucks on exotic speaker cables employing huge conductors with special insulations in complicated geometries, then when the audio signal is handed off to the speaker, the exotica drops to nil...small gauge conductors run willy nilly, etc. I'm sure it makes little difference if any but it just seems contradictory.
Nice post, oldguy. I'm (sort of) biased as a V2 owner, but one of many things that I respect Magico for is transparency, and not just the musical variety. You know what they're made of, what their engineering rationale is, and how they're put together. And frankly pretty ballsy, too; I mentioned this to a potential buyer - when's the last time you saw a nonpotted crossover? They even had the V2 crossover out for display at the last CES. Everythings's laid out, almost as if they're daring someone to reverse engineer it. Come on, how can you miss that "Kaiser" stamp on the picture of the Q5 skeleton - if you get a magnifying glass you could probably identify the manufacturing date and mill run number LOL.
Of course we don't "listen" to all this engineering gobbledygook, just the final result, but it's refreshing to see what you're getting for your $$$. And yes, they ain't cheap; they are providing a lot of good grist for discussion of the differences between value and luxury in my family - I want my kids to know the differences damn well, as I hope to save them a lot of grief in the future. For the money, without yet hearing it, it appears that the Q5 is "reasonable" in these regards although my wife could argue otherwise : >). However, her points regarding the finer details of, say, the Range Rover, over its competitors are better understood and explained by her since that's where her interests lie.
Admittedly I have the same respect for other die-hard designers, Rockport coming foremost in mind. Maybe we can draft yet another blue-ribbon Presidental panel and fix some of our trade deficit issues with the Far East by having them accept payment in speaker "currency" via Magicos, Rockports, EvolutionAcoustics, {or fill in the blank with your favorite good 'ole made in the US of A speaker maker}?
OK, any Vegas odds out there about the next Q speaker? Anyone? Q(uantum of Solace) is already taken. Q(E) 2 could anger some Anglophiles since it may evoke thoughts of Her Majesty - unless she's willing to endorse it (no disrespect intended, my wife is English-born). Q4, out of the question. Q3, possible; smaller form factor, maybe "replacing" the V3? Mini Q ? - good (and pun-worthy). I'm putting bets on Q7 and Q9....and simultaneously graciously retiring the M6. BTW, no one is saying that the Q5 is the Magico "flagship," so I expect something real cool by next year......all this is pure conjecture and is meant to be in good humor, so please don't Q(uote) me.
I got to thinking about the Magico M6 and the BMW M6...both highly desirable things to possess. Just for the record, the msrp on the BMW is $10K LESS than the Magico. Granted, you won't be needing to change the oil or buy insurance for the Magico but still...
See now why YG Acoustics have butted in on this thread. Lo and behold a new speaker they have introduced - ' Carmel' around $18000. Blabbing about machining too!
Looks like someone has heard them...
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Magico-Merging-Technologies-an...
While there are other aluminum loudspeakers on the market none of them come close to the sound quality of the Q5.
aouchh!
I must say, the suspense is building up. Have not felt this way about speakers in a long time. Even tried to get airline tickets to the show but prices have skyrocketed. I may have to wait till our local Magico dealer gets a pair. That is going to be hard.
You are looking into Speakers that cost $55,000 but the air line tickets are too expensive???? lol you must be kidding.
Where is the YG guy in all this? lol.......as bad as I feel for any business in trouble......seems like YG is on the last stretch making desperate efforts. Magico has taken over the top end by storm, fascinated the reviewers, magazines, audiophiles making it possible for them to charge what they charge for their products. The pricing is hideous but for that sector of equipment and customers what a strong and eventful entrance with a bang. What a success!
What makes you think YG is in financial trouble? Also, your statement about how bad you feel for "any business in trouble" is so sincere. To offer a possible answer to your question, maybe the YG guy as you call him may have just tired of the conversation.
And at least I will state that I have no agenda/affiliation with YG or Magico.
if the Q5 is really so good as said in the review, the Mini, V2, V3 could one day be replaced by all aluminium boxes ...
that would be nice
Jonathan,
I would like to ask you if you have had any in depth experience with the Magico M6 and if so how how would you compare it to the M5?
Thanks and keep ut the great work,
Roy
Hi Roy,
i have heard the M5 and M6 in the same room (not my room). i think the M6 is better at filling the room. creating that pressurized feel that can really deliver the low end (this was a big room 20 x 30 x 11) (my room is also big, which is why i care about the ability to pressurize and a comment that JV might disagree with as his room is smaller and maybe the M5 can do it there). i don't think it is as good as the M5 in the mid's and high end and if i were to choose one i would choose the M5 (i.e. its pluses outweigh the M6 pluses, IMHO).
Can't better that.
JV
The Magico looks great, really wonderful to have some more fresh breeze of a company who seems be very competent in many ways.
I hope I will have a possibility to listen to them some day!
btw couldn't let it pass unnoticed but are that YG noisy or what, Yaov has no whatsoever kind of technical background or education but worked in the past for all kinds of companies when he still was in Israel where non of them were related to any kind of technical involvement, having a BSc I have to agree what others have commented and many things just doesn't make sense by Mr YG.
Anyway, looking forward to Magicos, or should one say some Black Magic.
What's the academic background of Alan Wolf of Magico?
Sam,
I honestly don't know. The question has never come up.
Jon