Is it time to drop the magic show?

Posted by: Mr Plus at 7:07 am, May 28th, 2010

A while back, I noted that the Magico Q5 made the best sound I’d ever heard from a loudspeaker. Several months on, and nothing I’ve encountered can unseat that conviction. But, here’s the little secret…
 
This is the least well-named brand in audio. There’s no ‘magic’ in Magico’s Q5.
 
 
This is not some hocus-pocus, breathed upon, tweaked-up loudspeaker design. There’s no falling back on empty claims and voodoo physics, no design elements that sprang from dreams, astrological tables or homeopathic repertories. It’s just good engineering, raised to a very high power.
 
Disregarding the sound quality entirely, this project is the sort of thing that attracts engineers like moths to a flame. Not just audio people, engineers of all stripes would ‘get it’. The braced aluminum spaceframe within, the way the drive units go on a world tour to utilize the technological advantages of engineering teams across continents, the no-compromise bill of materials and the heavy quarter-inch plating that goes into the outer casing; these are all things engineers would drool over. OK, some might ask if this is overkill for the task of making good sound (there is space hardware built to less demanding standards), but any engineer worth his or her salt would walk away from the CAD/CAM workstation and the finished product with no small degree of respect.
 
In a way, this has parallels with British turntable and arm-meister, SME. Once again, side-stepping any discussion of sound or performance, the engineering that goes into an SME design is not hard to spot. Rumor has it that when pitching for high-grade engineering contracts outside of the audio industry, SME’s late founder Alistair Robertson-Aikman used to send an SME tonearm to the chief engineer of the prospective client, with a note saying “if you can find someone who could make this better than we can, you can keep it”. This would be followed by a humbling visit to SME’s factory in Steyning, and a contract. And usually, sales of an arm or two to the engineers doing the visiting. That's not arrogance (ARA was not an arrogant man), it's confidence in the knowledge that your engineering kung fu is strong. Just as sales people love to be sold to, good engineers love good engineering.
 
When you consider the loudspeaker (or turntable) as a small-scale engineering project writ large, it reshapes one’s reactions to other products in that field. Not simply rivals at the same price/performance level, but even – especially – at more down-to-earth prices. If the engineering is reflected in its sonic performance (and in mechanical-engineering exercises like turntables and loudspeakers, that's highly likely), and you spend enough time to acclimatize yourself to that engineering-derived performance, it effectively eliminates a lot of products in the process. At less heady and breathless price levels, this line of reasoning gives you greater admiration for loudspeaker companies like B&W, PSB and Revel; brands that take the time and energy to engineer a loudspeaker. It also gives renewed respect for the blue-sky research done by the BBC, KEF and the NRC in the past, as well as the fruits of such programs. The importance of correctly ‘voicing’ a loudspeaker to ensure it doesn’t sound like someone tipping a sack of spoons down a fire escape should not be understated, but neither should the significance of backing up that loudspeaker voicing with good, solid physics, mathematics and engineering.
 
In other words, perhaps good loudspeaker designs need to come from engineering schools, not Hogwarts.
 
There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with the self-taught, wild-haired audio designer, having flashes of brilliance and designing audio masterpieces. Indeed, a great deal of the best of the best in high-end audio comes via this route. Plus, many of these people are not as 'self-taught' or as  ‘wild-haired’ as it might seem. But the trouble with designer-led loudspeaker companies is they can turn into brands making ‘designer’s folly’ loudspeakers, where overall performance is compromised in order to achieve a specific or unstated goal.
 
While this design process can produce remarkable results – this little world of ours would be an altogether duller place without at least some loudspeakers that stress one aspect of performance at the expense of the others – we need to distinguish those products that are striving to follow a different, but potentially just as valid, audio path from those that are compromised by shortcomings in the design. Because, I suspect we have been too accepting of weaker designs being represented as ‘idiosyncratic’ and too unwilling to recognize their moves away from accuracy as moves away from fidelity.
 

Comments

Terre Batu (not verified) -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:16

I'm not sure I understand the point of your post. Are you that bored?
The same thing can apply to cables, to components, or even cars.
Name a loudspeaker company that has stayed in business for many years with bad engineering.
I'm sure Magico makes good sounding speakers, but their price points are absurd.
An M5 cost one third of a Ferrari. A ridiculous notion when you consider it takes a year to build a Ferrari, and the amount of engineering involved blows away any loudspeaker design.                

Mr Plus -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 11:54

Basically, what I'm saying is Magico's Q5s have made me a more discriminating listener. That's after 20 years as a reviewer and more as a civilian. They make you challenge your perceptions as to what is and what is not acceptable in loudspeaker design.

What I've found after listening to the Q5s is that I have become increasingly intolerant of listening to colorations I hitherto considered 'negligible'; port chuffing, cabinet colorations, boosts and cuts in the frequency range, etc, etc. That means since I listened to the Q5s, I started rejecting a lot of loudspeaker designs put forward to me for review.

Am I going to name names here? No. Because what I need to process is whether my new-found dislike of these deviations from fidelity are merely a change in personal taste, or the start of growing a pair. The world of audio is in a tenuous enough state without one of its editors starting to point the finger, especially if they are pointing the finger for no good reason.

Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com

Terre Batu (not verified) -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:34

Ok, I get your point. A couple of thoughts: First, many of the "colorations" of loudspeakers actually work in the listeners favor. As
hyper neutral, just the facts mam speakers tend to induce fatigue and boredom. Many of the additive qualities of many loudspakers
make the music sound more like flesh and blood..in much the SAME way the additive qualities of Vinyl make the listening preference
of many audiophiles. There is not a person who can seriously argue that Vinyl is the most transparent to the master tape, not by a long
shot, but many claim it is more "musical".

If you have become less "tolerant" of supposedly inferior or less engineered design, I feel sorry for you. Are you a music lover or
a gear head who loves specs?

Do you have the Magicos in your home set up currently? I

Mr Plus -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 17:11

I know that many kinds of loudspeaker coloration work for the listener. I have lived with several loudspeakers that are hugely colored by normal standards (Rehdeko RK115's being the best example) and enjoyed them immensely for the coloration and the musicality that brought. I also have a number of recordings made 100+ years ago that are similarly immensely enjoyable, but offer an extremely limited view into the music itself. A modern example of this is the Eclipse loudspeaker designs - shaped like an engine cowling, these crossoverless one-way designs are engineered to be bandwidth-limited, but time-domain coherent. This is a deliberate trade-off and - in the right context and the right room - they will make other designs sound arch and unreal. There's no question of "did you mean it to sound like this?" because the design is so different to the norm, the answer is obviously 'yes'. I don't consider this kind of coloration to be a problem at all.

In effect, I guess my problem is with the half-way houses. Loudspeaker designs that strive to achieve the conventional 'high fidelity' goal, only to fall short due to some flaw in the design. Port and cabinet resonances for example. I'm not saying that I've just discovered port resonance, or that I didn't know cabinets could sing along with the music, but it seems that these issues that I did not find as vexatious a few months ago trouble me more now. Some companies can engineer these problems out of the loudspeaker. Some can't. My concern is whether these should be considered 'character' in a loudspeaker, or 'character flaws'.

This also invites the question about people's perceptions toward loudspeakers that have these 'character' aspects of the sound ironed out. Are they really boring and fatiguing (and can something simultaneously be boring and fatiguing)? Are they 'neutral' like spring water, or like Switzerland (the Harry Lime remix)? Back in the day, I used to sell Linn Kan and Rogers LS3/5a speakers in many either/or demonstrations. I favored the Kan because it was 'fun', but others loved the LS3/5a for its 'accuracy'. After this epiphany, would I still pick the Kan?

On average, I buy about a dozen CDs a week and listen to music about six hours a day. Does that make me a gearhead or a music lover?

No, I don't have the Magico Q5s in room. I don't think there are a pair in the UK yet. I will get them, but I will not keep them. I can't afford them. I could stretch to buying the V2s in time, but I'd have to stop buying CDs for a year or so.

Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com

Terre Batu (not verified) -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 17:44

Excellent reply.

I have owned 2 pairs of Rogers, and I would hardly call them accurate by todays standard. That only came to me by comparison to newer designs. But hearing more modern speakers did not "spoil" me for the BBC monitor sound. I have heard speakers costing as much as car from Thiel, Audio Physic, Wilson, B&W, and Magnapan and I still prefer my Harbeths. That is just me.

12 cd's a week? That is pretty awesome. I thought I spent alot, as I buy that many per month.

I agree with you, if I understand you correctly, that a speaker that strives to be a high performance, neutral transducer, but only fails due
to faulty implementation, is a waste of time. However, I can tell you speakers CAN be designed with balance in mind a the expense of ultimate
resolution.

Honestly, if you did not hear the Magico M5 in your own system, you should not be crowning them. You may be well aware that TAS and HiFi Plus are seen as having gone over board in their enthusiasm for Magico products, to point of being a defacto PR firm for them. I do not have that extreme view, but there is a case for them.

I simply cannot judge something unless it is in a system I am intimately familiar with. I am not saying that you can't recognize good sound in unfamiliar systems. Of course you can.

And I think my tie in with Vinyl was appropriate, as groove fanatics obviously make a decision to ignore surface noise and other problems in the name of musicality, at least according to them.

Mr Plus -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 18:11

I agree with you. I'm still reserving judgment on the Q5 until I really get to grips with them. I have spent a not inconsiderable amount of time in front of these speakers in a number of different places and with different electronics (not just in a busy show environment), which gives me cause to say that they are the real deal and that their presentation made me go home and tear up what I consider the rule book.

Interesting that you mention Harbeth in there. The more time I spent with what is, ultimately for me, an unattainable reference point with the Q5, the more attractive the Harbeth sound gets. It's one of the few speaker systems that doesn't sound like it's a place-holder for more expensive loudspeakers.

A heavy CD habit does go through cycles. At the moment, I'm coming to the end of a 'up' phase and I'll probably drop down to a few CDs a month. Then back again. Truth is, I'm running out of space, and I'd be 137 years old by the time I finish listening to every disc. And you have to sacrifice a room or two to music storage. These points form part of an intermittent whine from the wife's upper regions. It's also why I'm pretty gung ho about music servers/Mac and DAC/Digital Streamers and other digital solutions.

Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com

Terre Batu (not verified) -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 19:13

Tell me about it! I actually purchased a wonderful cabinet system for my 3500 cds, and they are all arranged in alpha order. Completely changed
my life, and the wife is quite happy as it matches the floors.

I also plan on exploring a music server, possibly Olive. I have one in the bedroom, simply a Squeezebox and an external DAC, but it is dependent on my computer being on. Annoying.

I keep saying the M5, but I realize we are talking about the Q5. Yes, Harbeth is to my mind not a place holder. As a matter of fact, for many it is the end of the line. It offers endless hours of fatigue free listening, and it never, ever, leaves analyzing one aspect of the sound, or wishing I could tweak one aspect of its performance. It simply is, and it simply does. It is an old cliche, but give me British midrange glory any day of the week.

What exactly about the Q5 has you so seduced and questioning the entire paradigm? How does it compare to the M5, Mini II, or V3?

Mr Plus -- Thu, 06/10/2010 - 06:58

Sorry, our system marked you as spam temporarily, so I couldn't respond.

What really got me about the Q5 that puts it potentially ahead of even the M5 is the absence of cabinet sound. That's impressive, because the cabinet is not really a major player in the M5, but here it almost sounds as if you can hear the wood of the M5 cabinet when going to the Q5. The Mini II might have more bottom end than almost every standmount I've come across, but it's still a two-way sealed box standmount.

As for the V3, there's too much water under the bridge to do a fair comparison. I last heard a V3 in anger about two years ago I think. If I can't remember precisely 'when' I heard it, I'm going to struggle to pull that sound out of the memory bank and compare it to the M5. What I can remember is walking away from the V3 with a sense of 'wow', rather than the 'start all over again' reaction to the Q5.

As to the music server... you can install SlimServer on a NAS box, so that you don't need your PC running to drive the Squeezebox. QNAP have a webpage dedicated to showing you how to do this: www.qnap.com/pro_application.asp?ap_id=71. There's also a company in the UK called Ripcaster (www.ripcaster.co.uk) that supplies pre-configured NAS boxes off-the-shelf and has a fine FAQ. You might also want to check out Linn's online, open source documentation pages (especially http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/DS_Network_Setup) to create a simple and robust home subnet for installing a NAS drive - this can get slightly Linn-specific (I'd forget going down the Twonky route if you are using a SB), but is an excellent resource nonetheless.

Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com

Terre Batu (not verified) -- Thu, 06/10/2010 - 21:11

Hi Alan:
Yes, the spam issue has been going for a month now, certainly not your fault though.

First, thanks for the great suggestions on the NAS stuff, great links indeed. Seems I probably will go that route. I am also, for the hell of it, going to try an Olive 4HD.But I think installing SlimServer on a network drive is the ticket.

On the Magico's, very interesting overview indeed. Being a British monitor guy I just take for granted cabinet resonances, just like you are able to phase out LP surface noise, or the resonance of an acoustic guitar played live unamplified.

And this all gets very interesting in that I am currently borrowing a pair of Thiel floorstanders that very that have much in common with the Magico designs...high tech drivers, non resonating cabinets, off the charts build and BOM quality, and high resolution. Of course, in the end they are different animals.

When and if you get the Q5 in your home I will be chomping at the bit to read your review!

Terre

Terre Batu (not verified) -- Thu, 06/10/2010 - 21:11

Hi Alan:
Yes, the spam issue has been going for a month now, certainly not your fault though.

First, thanks for the great suggestions on the NAS stuff, great links indeed. Seems I probably will go that route. I am also, for the hell of it, going to try an Olive 4HD.But I think installing SlimServer on a network drive is the ticket.

On the Magico's, very interesting overview indeed. Being a British monitor guy I just take for granted cabinet resonances, just like you are able to phase out LP surface noise, or the resonance of an acoustic guitar played live unamplified.

And this all gets very interesting in that I am currently borrowing a pair of Thiel floorstanders that very that have much in common with the Magico designs...high tech drivers, non resonating cabinets, off the charts build and BOM quality, and high resolution. Of course, in the end they are different animals.

When and if you get the Q5 in your home I will be chomping at the bit to read your review!

Terre

bosell -- Sat, 06/05/2010 - 16:15

So the Q5 is unequivocally a better speaker than the Avalon Isis then? And there's no need to reach for the Coltrane Supreme and other ultra high end stuff? Should I just order a pair and demote the Isis to the second system or should I travel across America to my dealer to hear them first? Thanks!

BTW, I'm totally serious.

M.D. (not verified) -- Mon, 06/07/2010 - 20:30

If I were to spend 50k on anything, I would fly across the country to see, hear, and smell it. :) Which reminds me. I could use a vacation right about now.

Mr Plus -- Wed, 06/09/2010 - 06:22

I don't doubt the seriousness of your question. It's taken me some time to draw up an answer that responds to it with the same appropriate seriousness.

At face value, my first answer would have to be that if the one product performs better than all the others, then there seems little point in bothering with others. Of course, the 'performs better' is moderated by personal requirements and budget - if you have a room the size of a filing cabinet and a small budget, your definition of 'performs better' is shaped by those factors. But this seems overly reductive.

We exist in a very subjective world. Even if a product is unequivocally better than its rivals, other factors may influence the buying decision. A perfect example of this exists elsewhere in the audio world - a well-engineered solid-state amp might typically have power output, a signal-to-noise ratio and distortion figures (and more) an order of magnitude better than a single-ended triode rival. And yet, some people prefer the sound of a single-ended triode amplifier, usually in the knowledge that solid-state designs typically measure better. There's no reason why loudspeakers (at any price level) should be immune from personal taste; in fact, there's every reason to suggest personal taste plays a substantial role in loudspeaker selection.

This is not simply down to choosing what you consider the best looking design, or finding a loudspeaker designer you feel a kinship with, although these elements are very important in their own rights. It's also about finding a sound you like. No amount of discussion about the objective reasons why the sound you like isn't 'right' can sway that, although it seems over time listeners (as a collective, not necessarily individual listeners) move toward more accurate, less colored presentations. At the high-end however, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a design that was significantly less accurate or more colored than its rivals; such a design would be unlikely to survive in the wild. Instead, what we have is a series of design briefs designed to reach a specific demand.

The reason why the Q5 has piqued my interest is that its specific demand seems to be complete neutrality (you could argue that this is nothing new; Revel has been doing this for years. In fairness, I confess that Revel is one of those brands that I have far less experience of than I should have). By way of contrast, a number of truly high-end loudspeaker brands take a 'more neutral than neutral' route, and they attract a strong following because people like a musical midband, impressive dynamics, a tidy, fast bass and so on.

In some respects, the 'more neutral than neutral' approach gets results that are more in line with 'the absolute sound' (the concept, not the magazine) than the truly neutral transducer. For example, if you listen to a lot of piano music, but only have space for a small box loudspeaker, on initial listening the sound of an old BBC LS3/5a makes a sound closer to a real piano than something like a Harbeth P3ESR, but it does so by putting a small but deliberate boost in the upper bass that the later Harbeth design engineered out of the system.

My 'anything goes' opinion prior to this recent epiphany meant this 'more neutral than neutral' goal was a worthy one. I'm not so convinced by this laissez faire argument now, but ultimately that is probably more about philosophical navel-gazing on the nature of 'high fidelity' itself, than it is about products and which ones you should buy. When it comes to selecting loudspeakers in the real world, of course you should include as wide a range of models as you can hear, even if that means some cross-country travel. I still maintain that what's 'unequivocally better' is not 'unequivocally better' for all people.

Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com

bosell -- Thu, 06/10/2010 - 20:21

Thank you for your response. Up to this point, I've been thinking that -using your terminology- maybe the big Marten is truly neutral and the Isis is more neutral than neutral. However,that is based on sample size of one, because I know only one person who has both, drives them with a Spectral system like mine and has a professionally done room. Now, if the Q5 was at least as...heh, heh...truly neutral as the Supreme, it would be an instant savings of $250K to begin with. Then again, I'm too wondering what truly neutral is. For one thing, I've noticed that the Isis sounds consistently BIGGER than the Coltrane Supreme despite being much less physically imposing and having fewer drivers. The best illustration was a live recording my pal had done with a digital Nagra at a coffee shop. After we listened to both presentations from the tape, he took me to the coffee shop. And it sure as hell wasn't as big a venue as the Isis conveyed. Interestingly enough we both ENJOYED the larger than life presentation of the Isis more. Considering he had bought the Martens, he was remarkably unaffected by this all. "I often prefer to be slightly drunk too than stone cold sober."

audiophilesavant -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 12:03

If you have $54,000 for a pair of speakers and you like the way they sound, I say go for them.

Anonymous1 (not verified) -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 15:25

Alan,
One of the surest ways to validate what you are hearing is to measure the Q5 and your other loudspeakers in-room and see which deviate the least from a flat frequency response. While this is in no way a tell-all measurement, it will quickly let you know which speakers are closest to linearity (flat frequency response) and which are not.
I can say with absolute certainty (having witnessed outdoor measurements of the Mini II, V3 & M5) that all Magico speakers measure virtually flat (<1db) within their fullrange passbands. But a flat frequency responce is only the foundation of an excellent speaker, and Magico is one of the very few speaker companies that is truly SOTA in every category that truly matters.

David Matz -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 16:48

Interesting post.  It does raise a lot of questions.  Is this based on a day at the show, or on a longer audition?  Is it only the speakers or the rest of the system?  If you do not have these in your home, how well do you remember the reference point?  If you just heard these at the show. what else was going in your life at that time?  Win the lottery? Promotion? Large inheritance from a distant relative?  Relationship in a honeymoon stage?   And did you consume any beverages or inhale any substances prior to  the listening experience?
As a reviewer, I kind of feel bad for you.  You will have to listen to a lot of other stuff even if you buy or have these...
 
 

Mr Plus -- Fri, 05/28/2010 - 17:34

That is a lot of questions.

1. I've heard these speakers on a number of occasions, and through a variety of different electronics
2. Given #1, I'd say it's predominantly the loudspeakers
3. Robust audio memory is very short-lived. Longitudinal listening accounts for some of the more accurate comparisons. If pre-Q5 I was listening to music several hours a day, post-Q5 a lot less time spent listening, but no other changes to the system, something that happened in the Q5 experience changed my perceptions of what I previously enjoyed listening to. The price differential is immaterial
4. No changes to lifestyle or earnings prospects before, during or after the listening sessions. I don't even have any usefully rich relatives I can bump off. I can't afford the Q5s and they are effectively outside my remit. This is why their 'echo' back into the sort of speakers I could afford and regularly listen to is so interesting
5. No adult beverages, to my knowledge. Apart from the baseline five quarts of tequila required to keep the blood in my alcohol stream at its normal low level. But hey... a guy's gotta have breakfast!
6. "I don't do drugs anymore... than, say, the average touring funk band" - Bill Hicks. But seriously, no... no pharmaceuticals, recreational, prescribed or self-medicating
7. Don't feel bad. I get paid to listen to music. Even playing the worst possible system, I don't get to win the "tough day at work, dear?" question

Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com

David Matz -- Tue, 06/01/2010 - 21:31

Wow! I guess all I was after was how long it took you to make that judgment and if there were any exogenous factors possibly affecting that judgment. Thanks for the long list!

zead (not verified) -- Tue, 06/01/2010 - 12:29

 
  Allan,
             always nice to see a reviewer going on a limb about a product........i hope you get to hear the VANDY's Model 7..would love your thoughts on them and how they stack up against the Q

shape-ups (not verified) -- Tue, 06/08/2010 - 02:29

I agree with you. I'm still reserving judgment on the Q5 until I really get to grips with them. I have spent a not inconsiderable amount of time in front of these speakers in a number of different places and with different electronics (not just in a busy show environment), which gives me cause to say that they are the real deal and that their presentation made me go home and tear up what I consider the rule book.

Chris Connaker (not verified) -- Thu, 06/10/2010 - 11:14

Hi Allan - It's great to read your comments about the Q5 loudspeakers. I took some serious heat for making similar statements about the sonics and design of the Q5. I don't regret saying it's the best loudspeaker available today. Period. Magico should be very proud and should be rewarded for what it has accomplished with the Q5.

Mr Plus -- Thu, 06/10/2010 - 20:04

Hi Chris,

Yes I saw some of the flak you took. I thought you acquitted yourself with style and aplomb though.

Keep up the good work - and still loving the CA site.

Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com

Fitzcaraldo215 -- Thu, 06/10/2010 - 19:01

No doubt that Magico's are excellent, all of them, as are some other fine brands.  I do have one concern, however, which is really not about Hi FI Plus.  It's about TAS and Robert Harley.  I do not have the facts to make any accusations, but I am curious about all those junkets to hi fi salons made together by Harley and Alon Wolf for joint presentations.  It seems to imply a "cozy" relationship between TAS and Magico or even an endorsement of Magico.  I am sure that is unintentional, but I think TAS has to ask themselves whether it creates the appearance of a conflict of interest, potentially jeopardizing readers' views of TAS' objectivity with regard to this brand, which potentially extends to other brands, as well. 

rumford -- Sat, 06/12/2010 - 13:10

TAS is not concerned with conflicts of interest - real or apparent. Their objectivity has long since vanished.

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