David Wilson's presentation on the new Wilson Audio Sasha loudspeaker
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1999 - 2011 NextScreen. All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
Comments
Hi there,
Normally I try to limit these Soundslides presentations to a minute or less, but someone as passionate about their products as Dave Wilson is never going to pack all this information into 60 seconds. However, I'd rather not cut too much out of his exclusive talk to AVGuide.com.
I did cut a few things from the talk (OK, OK... I didn't get to turn on my recorder fast enough), such as a little tale about the grab handle on the back of the WATT. This was originally designed so that the product could be moved from venue to venue for recordings, but few domestic speakers need the same carry handle. So the distinctive rear grip goes away.
Also, Dave answered why he picked the name Sasha. It could have become WATT/PUPPY 9, but this is the most radical set of developments to the basic design since its inception. It's also the name of the Wilson's pet German Shepherd dog. And, it's a contraction of the name Alexandria. Although the new Sasha was not on demonstration at the show, according to Dave Wilson, the Alexandria X-2 and the new Sasha have a lot in common...
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Dear Alan
I was just about the first owner of the Watt Puppy 5 system in Johannesburg over 15 years ago.
I had all the upgrades put in and recently had the drivers re-furbished.
Still sound great, but i get just as much pleasure out of the in ear experience with Shure and my I pod and much less fuss.
Is there still a place for the high end speakers.? The new stuff is just too expensive at $29 900.when converted to South African Rands.
What do you think?
Regards
Henk van Wyk
Randjesfontein
MIDRAND
I don't think anything's really changed. People didn't give up buying speakers when the Sony Walkman appeared, they aren't doing so now. Even those who will never, ever go down the audiophile route still end up with iPod docks and systems with speakers. And really good speakers (and the similarly good components needed to get the best from them) cost money.
I have no problems with listening on loudspeakers or headphones. They can both be extremely satisfying experiences. But they are different experiences.
People often forget the influence of both time and currency fluctuations. You remember your WATT/Puppy V system with its price tag from 15 years ago and then balk at 2009 prices, but think about the 1996 prices of many goods and you find they have risen accordingly. Now compare exchange rates and factor that into the equation, too.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
I just bought a pair of VSA VR5 Anniversaries and must say they are outstanding. Should I give a serious listen to the Sasha's? What is their configuration? Do you have information on each driver employed? Are they ported...front or rear? The aesthetics are nice indeed.
thx.
My bad...just realized you can click on Dave's pic and get a full marketing spiel. Question though...how will they compare with the VR5 Anniversaries? The VR5s clearly outperform the watt puppy 8s...even the VR4 SR MKIIs can boast that claim.
More overpriced junk from Wilson. Anyone who would pay $30K for these is insane.
Well, yes... anyone paying $30,000 for a $26,900 loudspeaker is approximately $3,100 insane.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
This eveloution in high-end speaker design seems promising if it can trickle down to Sophia (III ?). The Sophia II doesn't dip as much i impendance and is almost as sensitive to a much (to me) more aproperiate price. Is there such a product in pipeline?
I think it unlikely that Wilson would not be designing new models, but whether they are in the pipeline... who knows?
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Henk van Wyk's and Allan comments both point to the disproportionately high prices that top-end speakers (and equipment also) has become in the last two or three decades of audio hystory. While I cannot judge about the sound of the Wilson Sasha and the quality of its components, since I have not seen one, the fact that Henk (who owns an up-dated Watt Puppy 5 system) is getting "just as much pleasure out of the in ear experience with Shure and my I pod..." Tells A Lot. Allan's comment about what he thinks of the insanity of expending $30K also makes me wonder if the amount is justified or not quite. (I would be happy to expend half the $30K but guess I could get quite a nice and perfectly acceptable complete stereo sound system by assembling it myself...)
When reading the article on "Listening to Horns: The Classic Audio Loudspeakers T3.3" by Tom Martin, posted at 8:08 am, April 27th, 2009, I couldn't refrain myself and commented on the incredible expense of devoting 18,000 US dollars just to go from the "standard" permanent magnet drivers version of those speakers, to the top of the line field coil version... My brief analysis of the probably esoteric materials possibly used to supply the Direct Current to the Field Coils of the drivers, suggests that even using the most expensive materials, the price difference won't be justified at all. ] (I estimate that a truly esoteric DC supply for the Field Coils and the required modification at the drivers themselves could not go above a fourth to a fifth of the 18,000 dollars difference).
In these times of economic crisis, what should be done by the reviewers, is to try harder and find more affordable, sensible and no-nonsense equipment and approaches available, even when writing about outragously expensive examples is fun (like reading test reports on Ferraris and Lambos, quite fun, but nothing else).
How about going Multi-Amped with Active Crossovers against Passive crossover speaker systems "Bang-for-the-Buck" articles?
More and more of out of reach expensive examples articles is not a service to the vast majority of your readers.
Sincerely, Alfred M. Claussen-Sound Engineer.
FYI:
The woofer in the Focal Grand Utopia EM, is a field-coil design.
As the full enjoyment of a luxury (and high end audio is a luxury) is subjective, only the person who acquires it can determine if it is worth it to him or her.
Instead of arguing on what price level is "value" and what is insanely expensive (since this number will vary per person depending upon their budget, priorities and sensitivities) it may be good for reviewers to underline what they feel is a relative value for the price regardless of the price. And they should also indicate what things are references reagrdless of the price. As they have the benefit of sampling far more gear than any audiophile will be able to audition, they are in a unique position to say what punches above the weight, what is a reference and what falls short.
For me, Wilson is a bit of a reference, or at least wildly popular - so new developments from that company are automatically interesting to me, even if the $27k price tag is well out of reach for me. Because in context of other reviews you can start to have a picture how other speakers may stack up against it. You can then walk into an audiophile shop, next time you are willing to purchase speakers, and be able to have a meaningful conversation with the store owner and hopefully save yourself money and him time.
While I think budget components are interesting in and of themselves, I like to see a variety of gear, too. After all, what I would view as a budget might be an extravagent expense to you. Or it could easily be the other way around. I was in a conversation with an audiophile person about his record player (in a record store - that stocks some great audiophile titles!). He was going on and on about what a deal and value his turntable was, and I about blanched when he later revealed it was a high end SME table. For me the $30-50k price tag would be an impossible fantasy at best, but for him, was a deal. I won't question his sanity - because if he can afford it without sacrificing his financial security, then God Bless!
By the way,
The comment of Johannes Turunen ("The Sophia II doesn't dip as much in impendance") points exactly to the kind of difficulties that passive crossover speakers have to face and overcome. Active crossover and directly connected drivers have no problem with impedances. (plus A LOT of other advantages).
As simple as that.
amclaussen
The new Monitor Audio PL300's boast performance and sound quality that rivals the Wilson's and many other top end brands at a fraction of the price.....get a pair before the obvious price increase occurs.
I see all of the hestitations and frsustrations out there with products such as Wilson and do agree. When a company is suffering from the supply/demand equation of an overpriced speaker in a down market, there will be "production efficiency" cost reductions that are passed on to the marketplace. To paraphrase, nobody is buying the W/P 8 and that is why they reduced those to $26k to move them out of their facilities. They are introducing the W/P9 Sasha with the same of Titanium Focal tweeter and Maxx driver and sales will continue to drop as consumers have become more informed and are not willing to pay for the pseudo-Utah-technology. I am not going to plug my setup as an alternative but given Wilson's corporate "culture" and their demeaning behavior toward the audiophile consumer, I would suggest staying as FAR AS POSSIBLE from them and their products.
Well,
There is a limit of how HI-Fi we want to spend and the insanety in spending.
I find there is a limit our ears hear things and the money to product ratio.
Of how little change there is,Once you've reach a certain level on product price.
I went over board when I bought the JBL DD66000 Everest price $35K was disappointed when I compareed it side by side with me Khorns and JBL Paragon.
Might Khorns $3.5K hands down was the best to my ears period.
The only comment by GSamuelson I do not fully agree is the last one: "stay as far as possible from them and their product..." and that is because one CAN learn something from them, absolutely. Seeing and hearing the video clip reveals quite a few things:
1) the SHAPE of the enclosure shows that more attention to detail was designed in the basic box geometry, angles are now chosen so that the walls are "less parallel", even corners have been altered in that way. Rigidity of the enclosure walls is expected to be higher, compared with the previous model geometry. Al this changes are EASY to get in production by using modern cabinet making machinery, and geometric design is now much easier thanks to CAD software. Nothing extremely expensive here to contribute to final price, reduced or not.
2) Removal of Crossover sections from a certain location to lessen magnetic interaction is basic engineering, that should have been done from start, again, no high price modification here to justify final price. (Some Amateur Speaker-Builder sites show magnetic interactions and how bad they are, and specially, hot to solve them). (Surprised to see that the Designer of the Sasha did not catched this in his first model) That is NOT an advancement, but an obligued correction!
3) Drivers are conventional, NOT out-of-Earth designs.
Well informed and researching amateurs seeking to obtain similar drivers, could find them, expensive?, well... up to a point. But, again, NOTHING that could rise the price above a small fraction of 25K-plus total price.
4) Weight of Speakers reveals heavy construction and generous thickness, plus attention to deadness of resonances is commendable, but, again, it IS standard practice at commited amateurs level only. Even using quite expensive materials, NO price contribution here to justify final "discounted" price.
5) The Impedance dip causing 1.8 ohms at a critical 92 Hz frecuency, where a lot of musical energy is frecuent (no pun intended!)... This is again a result of having to deal with the complex impedance nature of dynamic drivers when trying to use passive crossover designs.
HERE some price-rising reason is present (at last !). Because the passive components NEED to be HUGE, Expensive and of mediocre results, full of undesirable effects. (I wonder what's the physical size of the woofer series coil !) The resulting interaction between components is what causes large impedance deviations from Nominal Impedance value in passive crossovers. Attempts to "control" response is what usually causes complex impedance behaviour, with undesirable dips (and rises), even with "correction" passive networks or circuits.
BUT, the announcement that some "precision resistors" are accesible behind a panel to "adjust" the response or sound really puzzles me... IF someone needs to play games with the Frecuency response balance tru crossover resistors manipulation, where goes the supposedly careful factory setting go?
I can only guess where will surely go the impedance curve when one alters those resistors values!
OVERALL, I truly believe that a determined and informed amateur speaker builder CAN reach this level of design by using well documented techniques. Even assigning arbitrarily high "self-salary" for the necessary large time needed to develop home built speakers, the final price (components, cabinet, crossovers, gold terminals, etc) PLUS a lot of man-hours to produce several prototypes, will rise the costs WELL UNDER what these kind of companies charge. No doubt about that. Finally, not a single novel, brilliant technical achievement that could be touted as "expensive breakthrough" can be detected here. In that sense, the Wilsons are not specially evolutionary, even less revolutionary. Just conventional, maybe well executed approach.
amclaussen, Sound Engineer.
The real issue I have with hi-fi components like this is the insane markup charged by the UK importer, which, by the time you add VAT (Sales Tax), means they cost the same in pounds as they do in dollars. Years ago, I imported an Audio Research D125 into the UK from the US, paid the duty and taxes and it was 60% of the UK dealer cost.
Did you import at two dollars to the pound? Or did you import at nearer $1.5, as it stands today? If it broke down in those first warranty years, how would you have got the product fixed? You also didn't have to buy several 'loaner' D125s to rep round dealers and reviewers (which is probably how you managed to select a D125 in the first place), hold stock (paid for in advance) so that those dealers can obtain their products for customers quickly.
I'm not holding the distributor up as a paragon of virtue, but a commercial business. I can shave a lot of money by grey importing a Gibson Les Paul guitar from the US rather than going to UK agents, but doing this helps destroy those agents. Eventually, if we all do that, the next time I want to work out the difference between a Les Paul Traditional and a Les Paul Standard, I need to fly to the States to play them. That helps no-one.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Mr Wilson undoubtedly builds good loudspeakers but he has also pursued a business model that "encourages" dealers to glorify his products and ultimately himself. To pull this off, he cultivated an "ultra high-end" image, only by invitation, rich and famous only, middle-class need not apply, perception that is wholly independent of the real worth of his products. It is enough for his business model that his products possess or is perceived to possess a certain technical mystique and occasionally "receive" rave reviews. There is no place for value-for-money in Mr Wilson's ivory tower. He is simply too megalomanic to even consider the interests of real people. To my mind, his business practice and others in the industry of his ilk ultimately give hi-fi and being an audiophile a bad rep.
Wow - a lot of hate being spewed here.
But the bottom line is, why not listen to a pair?
If you like them and have the means, buy them.
If you like them and don't, well, undoubtedly there will be some sets on Audiogon at half price within several months.
Meanwhile, people look at Wilson's cost structure and wonder why most speaker manufacturers have had to move operations to China…
I listened to the MAXX 3 in Munich. I have to say that in comparison to some other rooms, the sound was quite “outdated”. Very much hi-fi, not much else. I had no desire to stay in the room after few minutes. They were playing with top notch electronics, although you would not be able to tell if you did not know. It seems to me that they have lost touch with the real world somewhat. I mean who would call the replacement of an iconic brand like the W/P after his dog?
I agree that the Maxx 3's are not particularly impressive sonically, but let's get some input on Sasha after actually hearing them please!!
good presentation of Mr Wilson. nice speakers.
Why manufacturers still produce speakers with 1.8 impedance dip at 90 Hertz in 2009?
recommended amplifier power: 20 watts. (?)
with 2009 technology it must be possible to come up with all model line-up doing above 4 ohms ( look at Verity Audio )
not even talking about electrical phase shifts. 4 ohms may be fine in itself, but if the electrical phase shifts are gross youve got amp killers yet again.
still the bigger Maxxes have great reviews from owners with SET amps like Lamm ML2.1
The recommended amplifier rating starts at around 20 watts. There's no upper limit, because... there's no upper limit. I've now heard these loudspeakers (review in an upcoming Hi-Fi Plus) and they sounded extremely good with nearly a Krellowatt of power. I was also concerned by that 1.8ohm impedance dip, but it did not seem to cause problems in reality.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
eager to find the latest issue of HiFi+ on my doormat. love the magazine since no1.
Wow, lots of hatred, or jealousy, or something. I have owned several pair of Wilson speakers, all terrific. I have owned many more pairs of other speakers - some terrific, many not. When all is said and done, the Wilson speakers I have owned have always delivered better value than all the other non-Wilson speakers I have owned. I have never sold a pair of Wilson speakers at a loss! (ie. for less than what I paid for them). I currently own Wilson speakers, in fact of my entire system, they are the longest standing component in my listening room. Time and time again when I am looking to try to eek out that next little bit of enjoyment or improvement, it is usually directed at another component or tweak in my room/system, etc. . . Of everything that I have owned, the Wilson speakers are the most difficult to replace (ie. to find something better at a comparable or slightly higher price). They are not for everybody, but so far, they have been best for me. And for the record, they are nowhere near the most expensive speakers one can buy.
I'm considering buying a pair but i don't know how they compare against B&W 800D, i use them with Chord SPM-14000 ultimate and CPA-5000 reference, i don't have a chance to try them or even listen to them i live way far from a store so i would have to buy base on opinions of others, so what do you say Alan Sircom?
I'm considering buying a pair but i don't know how they would compare against B&W 800D, i use them with Chord SPM-14000 ultimate and CPA-5000 reference, i don't have a chance to try them or even listen to them i live way far from a store so i would have to buy based on opinions of others, so what do you say Alan Sircom?
I'd say, given your choice of amplifier, the Wilsons would not be a good match. Stick with the B&W, or go with Kharmas, or possibly Focal. I think you'd fine the Chord-Wilson combination a hard one to live with, especially at the top end.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Thanks for the quick reply, i find it odd that you would say this because i've listened to other Wilson models always with Krell amplifiers wich IMO are a bit agressive in the top end when compared to the Chord's, you're saying that it might be a bit bright? Isn't Sasha's tweeters made by Focal?
Thanks for the quick reply, i find it odd that you would say this because i've listened to other Wilson models always with Krell amplifiers wich IMO are a bit agressive in the top end when compared to the Chord's, you're saying that it might be a bit bright? Isn't Sasha's tweeters made by Focal?
Thanks for the quick reply, i find it odd that you would say this because i've listened to other Wilson models always with Krell amplifiers wich IMO are a bit agressive in the top end when compared to the Chord's, you're saying that it might be a bit bright? Aren't Sasha's tweeters made by Focal?
I don't think the Wilson-Chord system will sound bright, but it may sound thin in the mids and top. And there's a lot more to a speaker than just the name on the back of the drive unit.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
So you're saying that the Chord amps are a bit thin in the mid and highs? Something i never noticed i'd say they're very neutral.
Mr. Alan wich do you think is the better speaker the Wilson Audio Maxx 2 or the Sasha's?
Kind regards,
Paulo Mendes
Tough choice. The MAXX 2 should be the better speaker, but I think I like the Sasha more. There was a long ol' gap between hearing one and the other, though. The Sasha seems to scale better than the MAXX 2 and it yet it sounds like a bigger speaker when it needs to. I don't remember the MAXX 2 having the same ability to scale down as well as the Sasha. The MAXX 2 is easier to drive and if you want to stay with those Chords, it would be the better choice.
Can't speak about the MAXX 3. I'm not instrument rated on that speaker.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Mr. Alan,
I really don't want to abuse but i think this is the last question what about a X-1 Grand SLAMM Series II?
It seems to be the very best option.
Kind regards
i have a pair of wilson watt 5 and wilson wap 5 speakers and i would like to know which are the suitable amplifiers for them?
regards
Hi Mr. Alan,
Now that i've received the Wilson's, i've been listening to music for quite a few months now, i can say that you couldn't be further away from the truth, the Chord's with the Wilson's is a match made in heaven all my friends that come over get their jaw glued to the floor, it simply plays music in a way that makes you forget about electronics and you simply want more and more music.
Hello Alan,
I am seriously considering the Sasha's but I have not found anywhere a review or comment on them paired with a full Naim system and in particular with a NAP 500. What is your opinion ?
Also, would a 3.68 m x 5.35 m room, firing down the long side, enable them to sing appropriately ?
Many thanks for your answers.
Stefano