CES 2012 Report - Chris Martens on Loudspeakers $7000 and Below
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Chris Martens’ Best of Show
Best Sound (cost no object)
A tie between the Nola Baby Grand Reference Series II speakers driven by ARC equipment and the MBL 101 X-treme speakers powered by MBL electronics. The former sounded supremely evocative, while the latter sounded simply majestic.
Best Sound (for the lowest price)
GoldenEar Technology’s cool three-channel SuperCinema 3D soundbar ($999) with dual ForceField 4 subwoofers ($499 each), driven by Arcam home-theater components—a soundbar system so good that audiophiles might buy it for music playback alone!
Most Significant Product Introduction
HiFiMAN’s stunning HE-400 planar-magnetic headphones are bargain-priced at $399 and sufficiently sensitive to be driven directly from iPods. Those seeking a delightful, compelling, and accessible entry point for high-end sound need look no further.
Greatest Technological Breakthrough
Cambridge Audio’s 851C DAC/CD transport, which might be the most balanced and versatile “digital Swiss Army knife” produced to date. It’s a disc player, a multi-input high-res (24/192) DAC, and a high-quality digital pre-amp.
Most Important Trend
The dawning realization, one voiced by manufacturers throught the show (not just at the Venetian), that the enduring value of great sound quality trumps the transitory buzz of "technologies du jour" or passing marketing fads.
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Comments
No Revel Performa3 coverage?
Hello Ajani,
Space constraints for this report were such that, inevitably, a number of truly worthy speakers were left unmentioned. My hope is that TAS will, in the coming year, be able to review some of the models I've mentioned, as well as some (such as Revel's Performa3-series speakers or the new Thiel CS 1.7s) that I did not include.
The good news is each of the speakers I've described in my report is quite special in its own right. I hope you'll have the chance to hear some of them so that you can form your own opinions.
Best, Chris Martens
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
Well said, Chris, why, then do we need TAS as a mentor ? Because we are a dumb middle class consumers ? I subscribe to a magazine called "Walking".
Regarding the Piega Premium 50.2:
"I would be hard-pressed to name another speaker in this price range that marries refinement and delicacy with sheer dynamic swagger and expressiveness the way this one does."
That speaker would be the Dynaudio Contour S3.4, Chris. I know that TAS almost never reviews Dynaudio speakers, but perhaps a review is in order in this case. It'd make a nice change from the myriad PSB and Magico,Magico, and er, um...Magico reviews.
Dynaudio Xeo 5's... 50 watts x 2 for each speaker and wireless. All for ONLY $4,500. Really? I'll take the Aragon 8008 ST I bought used for $700 (and which has run perfectly for over 2 years now) and a brand new pair of Magnepan 1.7's please. Add in a few hundred bucks for cables and we'll call it an even $3K. Now I can spend the other $1,500 on a well deserved vacation (or save for retirement!) and be happy for the next ten years. Wireless is overrated. And in this case, without even listening to them, over priced. Is this what 'high end' audio has come to? Sorry, but this article reads more like a marketing piece than any type of review.
Hello leader4u:
Here are several points for you to consider.
I share your view that Magnepan 1.7's are, indeed, an incredibly good deal and that they offer tons of performance per dollar. (I'm currently using a pair of 1.7's my main system, so I speak from personal experience.). But that said, let's acknowledge several Maggie-related reality factors.
1) Maggies need powerful and very high quality amplification; you **can** drive them with lesser amps, but they deserve better.
2) Maggies are sufficiently revealing that they really should be used with very high quality cables; those won't be cheap either.
3) Maggies, like other full-range dipole speakers, work well in some rooms, but not in others; in short, they can be pretty room sensitive.
4) While Maggies are thin, they are also big, imposing speakers when viewed from the front; in practice, this means that not all decor-sensitive users will find their appearance attractive, or even acceptable.
Now let's consider the Dynaudio Xeo 5. Does it sound as good as a full-on, fully-tweaked Maggie rig? I would say it does not, but neither does it cost as much as a properly-outfitted Maggie 1.7 system would (not by a long shot). As I said, the Xeo 5 sounds about like a good mid-level passive Dynaudio speaker (as powered by decent electronics), which is certainly nothing to scoff at. But the deeper beauty of the Xeo 5 is that it needs no amp, no preamp, and no speaker cables at all, and it is a pleasingly compact speaker (as floorstanders go) meaning that it can fit within a number of decor schemes. The whole point of the Xeo system is that it offers reasonable levels of high-end sound quality while eliminating the need for most of the components and cables that most other high-end systems entail. That's what makes the Xeo 5 newsworthy.
No, this wasn't a marketing piece, but it was an attempt on my part to discuss the multiple ways in which some inherently different types of high-performance speaker systems appeal to different types of listeners and end-users. Do you see a problem with that? Must everyone view things as you do, or share your exact tastes and preferences? Free your mind and recognize that music lovers are incredibly diverse and nuanced in their equipment needs, wants, and preferences. That's part of what makes this hobby so fascinating, don't you think?
You state that "wireless is overrated," and for you (and perhaps also for me) that might well be the case. However, I know a fair number of sincere and discerning music lovers/listeners who well and truly resent all the cable and gear proliferation that typical high-end audio systems entail, and they might answer the wireless question quite differently. While I'm not seeking a wireless solution for my personal use, I respect and appreciate the fact that Dynaudio has recognized a legitimate need and addressed it in a clever and elegant way.
Best, Chris Martens
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
Thanx for taking the time to respond Chris. Unfortunately I am a bit perplexed by several of your points. First, isn't an Aragon 8008ST 'high quality amplification"? I can also drive my 1.6QR's just fine with the $300 Acurus 250 I also picked up used and they still sound great. I am sure there are lots of other amps that are reasonably priced (new or used) that would do either the 1.6QR's or the new 1.7's justice as well. Second, I guess you are a 'cable guy'. Maybe I am just cheap, or less golden eared than others, but the 10 foot speaker runs of Audioquest Type 4 I use are also very reasonably priced and sound great too. Very high quality does not mean expensive. Again, anyone can get new cables, a new quality amp, and a brand new pair of 1.7's for considerably less than $4,500.00. As a result, I am very confused by your statement...
"Now let's consider the Dynaudio Xeo 5. Does it sound as good as a full-on, fully-tweaked Maggie rig? I would say it does not, but neither does it cost as much as a properly-outfitted Maggie 1.7 system would (not by a long shot)."
Huh? What is your definition of 'properly-outfitted'? Does that mean at least $10,000.00? At least $20,000.00? More? If your third and fourth points aren't a consideration, the Xeo 5's will get trounced by any well thought out $4,500 Maggie / amp / cable set up. Period. End of story. You and I both know it. Heck, you even so much as admitted it in your statement!
I do appreciate the wireless aspect of the Xeo 5's. Honest I do. And I do appreciate that people have different needs, tastes, and preferences when it comes to their audio equipment. But to call the Xeo 5's 'newsworthy' is stretching things for publication purposes. (Heck, wireless speakers and self-amplified speakers have been around for some time now.) I understand that in some respects you have to do so. It is your job and if you didn't accentuate the positives of various products those producers wouldn't advertise with your site / magazine and you wouldn't get paid. I have no such ties or obligations so it is easier for me to be blunt. Look, the Xeo 5's and some of the other systems you described may sound great and look nice, but many of them are overpriced and do not provide much in the way of 'value' (i.e.; 'bang for your buck'). I make a good living. But I don't make so much that value isn't a consideration. I'd guess I am in the majority on that point. While I appreciate hearing about new products, very few of them make people sit up and take notice. A pair of 50 watt, wireless speakers (Are you sure the Xeo 5's don't need a preamp? If not, how does that work when I have multiple sources?) that cost $4,500.00 will make people take notice. Unfortunately it probably isn't the kind of notice the manufacturer wants. Sorry, but I just don't see the 'legitimate need' that Dynaudio is fulfilling or the cleverness or elegance of their supposed solution. The value proposition isn't good and the product doesn't really break any new ground. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.
Sincerely,
Leader4u
Hi Leader4u:
Several quick follow-up points.
1. Yes, you can put together a package that includes 1.7's, an amp, and cables for at or below $4500. However, I don't believe such a system will be able to show you all that 1.7's can do. For that, you'll simply need better electronics, cables, etc.
2. What is a "properly outfitted" 1.7 system? To each his own. The answer depends on exactly how much of the 1.7's considerable performance envelope you hope to explore. The components and cables in my core system would retail for somewhere between the upper teens and the mid $20k range (speakers not included), depending on which of several source components you counted as being part of the system. You certainly don't have to spend that much to make 1.7's sing, but the truth is that such a system can and sometimes **does** reveal certain levels of performance from the Maggies that you can't readily access with lesser gear (or at least I haven't been able to do so).
3. You write that, "the Xeo 5's will get trounced by any well thought out $4,500 Maggie/amp/cable set up." Do you know this as an observed fact based on hearing the systems side by side (where, in fairness, you should compare the price of a new Maggie system vs. an also new Xeo 5 system)? Or, is your assertion based on informed (but as yet untested) speculation? I've not had the Xeo 5's in my home system and so am not in a position to comment one way or the other, except to say that I do think the Maggies have more performance headroom in an absolute sense (again, when driven by very high performance ancillary components.).
4. You write, "Are you sure the Xeo 5's don't need a preamp? If not, how does that work when I have multiple sources?" Yes, I am sure, though I think I can see the source of confusion, which I'm afraid I inadvertently may have caused.
I should have mentioned that the Xeo-series speakers not only come with a wireless transmitter module, but also with a remote control that interacts with the speakers and transmitter. The transmitter has three inputs: one analog (which can be fed from either a stereo mini-jack or from stereo RCA jacks), and two digital inputs (one Toslink and one USB). You select which of the three inputs you wish to use from the remote control, and also use the remote to adjust the Xeo system's volume levels. Hence, no preamp is needed. My apologies for not mentioning the Xeo-system remote control in my report.
For more information on the Xeo transmitter and its companion remote, follow this link: http://www.dynaudio.com/int/xeo/XEO_Transmitter.html
Best, Chris
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
Chris -
It is obvious from your first two points that you feel my system is clearly inferior to your much more expensive set up. Hey, it is made up of 10 to 15 year old, used equipment and didn't cost $20K. Would you be surprised if I told you my system, if you were to replace all of it with comparable equipment today, would be in the $14K to $17K range? Just because I didn't pay that for it... well. Be careful where you throw stones as they say.
As far as having heard the Xeo 5's versus any other system.. no I haven't. I don't feel the need to. I would agree completely with your comment about performance headroom and place a considerable wager on my assertion. Call me a fool but many people will be betting on less grounded assertions this coming Sunday.
Finally, thanx for clearing up the pre-amp confusion with the Xeo 5's. Yes, such a set up may work for some individuals. But while I think THAT specific feature is a somewhat novel approach, it clearly does not replace what most people would consider a pre-amp. I would be very interested to see the specs associated with said 'pre-amp', or more accurately, transmitter. Of course since it wouldn't be PC of you to respond to my other assertions about having to 'support the hand that feeds you' I am not surprised that you were able to work in another link to this product in your response.
As I said earlier, more money does not always equal better. And any rational individual will consider the value proposition of any product they may be purchasing. Clearly you feel differently on both counts. Keep spending money to get that last 5% from your 1.7's and keep plugging those expensive products most of us can't afford. I on the other hand, have to go listen to some music on my crappy, used equipment. I'll be smiling all the while...
Bernard
Hello again, Leader4u,
System superiority: Actually, I don't think your system is inferior to mine; it could very well be better. My point, though, one which you have made for me, is that yours is not really a "$4500 system" in the usual sense of that phrase. It is, as you indicate, a $14k to $17k system. So, in a sense, you've done for your Maggies what I've done for the ones I have on loan from Magnepan; namely, you've given them some premium quality gear to work with. But as you point out, you couldn't really buy **new** gear of that quality plus a pair of Maggies for $4500. You'd either have to shop judiciously for good used gear (which you've done), or else spend a whole lot more for comparable new components.
Re: the Dynaudio link. I provided it purely so you could see in Dynaudio's own words how they describe the capabilities of the Xeo 5 remote. So, my intent was to be informative and thorough--not to be politically correct (I'm all in favor of civility and politeness, but I personally am not a big fan of political correctness, largely because it has a nasty tendency to obscure the truth).
You write, "any rational individual will consider the value proposition of any product they may be purchasing. Clearly you feel differently on both counts." Actually, I DON"T feel differently on either count. Within our publication group I have a reputation as being the guy who values good affordable gear more than most, which is why I so often choose to cover affordable speakers, as well as headphones, earphones, and desktop audio (where there are some absolutely stunning values available, BTW, if you know where to to find them). So, believe it or not, I'm actually with you.
Where we might differ a bit, though, is that I feel when covering brand new pieces of audio gear it's important to compare new retail prices vs. new retail prices--not retail vs. used. Now this is not to suggest in any way that folks should buy new gear instead of good used gear; in truth, the best piece of audio gear for a given job and budget will sometimes turn out to be a used component, and there is nothing wrong with taking that approach. It's just that when asking, "Does brand new product 'X' offer a good value proposition?", I feel it's only fair to ask "Well, what other brand new product could I buy that would give me different and/or better results for less money?" That's really the only point I was hoping to make.
Best, Chris
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
Chris -
I started out by admitting that I owned some used gear. I also proposed that for under $4,500.00 you could put together a much better system than the Dynaudio's, including Magnepan 1.7's. I NEVER "pointed out" that "you couldn't really buy **new** gear of that quality plus a pair of Maggies for $4500." Please don't words in my mouth. For example... The brand new (resurrected) Acurus A2002 (200w x 2) has a MSRP of $2.499.00. The Magnepan 1.7's have a price of $2,100.00. If we can assume that an individual has reasonable negotiation skills, getting a 10% discount from a high end dealer is not far fetched. Add in reasonable quality speaker cables and taxes and you will end up right around the $4,500.00 mark for brand NEW gear. There are other amps out there that run considerably less than $2,499.00 that would probably sound great with the 1.7's and drive them just fine so you could potentially spend even less. Is that "new retail prices vs. new retail prices" enough for you? Do you now get MY point? (And before you pounce on the fact that there is no pre-amp in my proposed set-up, again, the 'transmitter' you described is not really a pre-amp either. I could just as well hook up the variable outputs from my OPPO Blu-ray player directly to the A2002 and play music all day long.)
Please try to actually 'read' what people post before responding to their comments. It leads to much less confusion and frustration on everyone's part.
Bernard
1) that system would not have the features of the dynaudio (dac and pre amp). 2) there is no guarantee it will sound better than the dynaudio. Not everyone loves the sound of magnepan. I doubt I'd buy the dynaudio, but I see it as an interesting new product from ces.
Actually, the Oppo has it's own, high quality dac built in. And as I stated, I wouldn't consider the transmitter an actual pre-amp. You are right, not everyone likes the Magnepan sound. But I was simply trying to point out that it is very possible to put together a similar, or possibly even a better sounding speaker and amp combination (using 1.7's) for the same total cost as the Dynaudio's even if you were buying brand new gear. At the very least, you would be getting an amp that would be more flexible in the long run, had much more power, and speakers that are known to be an excellent value.
I didn't include the oppo, because that would take the cost of your proposed system over the dynaudio price. Also, I'm not sure why you don't regard the transmitter as a pre; it has 3 source inputs, volume control and remote. While some persons may need more inputs, others would be ok with just 3. The dynaudio seems to be aimed at a very specific market rather than the traditional audiophile.
I agree. The Xeo 5's price doesn't include the cost of any source components so not including the cost of the Oppo in my comparison would only be fair.
On the other hand, I would never consider a 3.5mm jack a valid 'high fidelity' input so you are left with a USB (or was it a TOS link) input and an RCA input on the Xeo 5's transmitter. That transmitter does almost nothing that a fully functional pre-amp would do. No HDMI switching or video processing. No sound processing. No flexibility at all between sources. Most importantly, there are ONLY 2 inputs. I would also like to see the technical measurements of that transmitter. How does it compare (frequency response, distortion, s/n levels, output levels, etc.) to a high quality pre-amp? I don't know but I know I could never live with just those two outputs in my system. I doubt most people could. If it were only being used as an ancillary system, maybe. But then you have to wonder... How many people would spend $4,500.00 to listen to their i-Pod through wireless speakers?
Hi Chris, I also own the KW500, would this be a good match for the Magnepan 3.7s? I am presently using the Focal 1027be speakers but maybe the combination is just a touch analytical together. I have the room for the Maggies. Any thoughts. Thanks Tom
Hello thomas.l.martin,
Although I no longer own my kW500, I still remember it quite fondly and think it would make a good amp for use with the 3.7s (though note, I offer this opinion as an educated guess, but not on the basis of an actual listening test involving the 3.7 and kW500).
Pro's: The kW500 offers what I regard as an almost ideal amount of power for purposes of driving Magnepans, and it also offers the expected benefits of a well-executed hybrid tube/solid-state design (namely, the harmonic richness and rightness of a tube-powered front-end, plus the power and control of a well and truly beefy solid state power amp).
Con's: Good though the kW500 is in terms of resolution, I think there are newer amplifier designs that offer somewhat heightened levels of openness, transparency, and low-level detail (though often with an attendant roll-back in absolute power output levels). Thus, I would expect the kW500 to sound good with the Maggies, but would offer the caveat that there might be other amps out there that could more fully exploit the 3.7's terrific transparency.
Best, Chris
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
Dear Chris Martens (or anyone who can give me advice),
I am considering the Nuforce Reference 18 for my Magnepan 3.7s.
Will the drive the Maggies with lots of control/authority? I also have the MUsical Fidelity M6500i (500WPC @ 8 ohms).
I know both amps sound differently; but in terms of power...are they comparable?
Class D amps it in my suitcase, and since I live overseas, this is pretty important.
Thanks!
Bernard
Hello bernardperu,
I've not had a chance to try the Reference 18s with the Magnepan 3.7, but have heard them with the Magnepan 1.7 and with the Mini-Maggie system. In both instances, the Reference 18s offered plenty of control and authority--especially in the mid-to-low bass region. I would not say the Reference 18 is a "warm" sounding amplifier by any stretch of the imagination, so that it may have less perceived bass "weight" or "warmth" than some Class A/B amps I have heard. But with that said, I also found that the NuForce amps seem to be able to push Magnepans to reach lower than they might otherwise do, and to do so with fine clarity of attack and very good pitch definition.
I have not heard the Musical Fidelity M6500i, but based on my past experience with Musical Fidelity's kW 500 amp (also ~ 500 Wpc), I think the Musical Fidelity will be the more powerful amplifier--though not by a huge audible margin. In terms of size, as you say, the Reference 18 is by far the more compact solution.
I hope my comments are useful for you.
Best, Chris Martens
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
Thanks Chris! You are always very enlightening.
I also own the Magnepan 1.7s; so I may end up using the Nuforce 18 for these and the MF 500WPC for the 3.7
Thanks again,
Bernard
Hi bernardperu,
I think you could actually use the Reference 18s with either the 1.7 or 3.7 (I don't perceive one to be significantly harder to drive than the other, though the 3.7 is certainly more revealing).
Let us know how the experiment turns out.
Important hint: Give the NuForce amps plenty of run-in time; I find it audibly improves their sound.
Best, Chris Martens
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
Thanks again for the advice. I will buy them used so run-in time should be there already.
Before the MF 500WPC I was using the Peachtree Grand Integrated which is Class D 650 WPC at 4 ohms. The latter offered very good sound, but MF seems to be a bit better. In my opinion, the Peachtree option was able to provide Hi Fi joy and loud volume.
Will post my Nuforce impressions when I test them which should take a month.
Best, Bernard.