ARC + Maggie 1.7 = Bliss
I guess it shouldn't have come as a surprise, but I'd gotten so used to listening to superb solid-state amps and preamps from the likes of Soulution, BAlabo, and Technical Brain that I kinda forgot how terrific the ARC 610T tube monoblocks—now in combination with the great ARC Reference 5 preamp (which I will soon be reviewing in TAS), the ARC Reference Phono 2, the Walker Black Diamond Mk II, and the new Da Vinci Grand Reference Grandezza cartridge—sound.
It's simply amazing to hear how really good tube amps—and the 610T is the best I've auditioned—add space, dimensionality, and lifelike color, body, and texture to the soundfield. Take Sarah Vaughn (which I would gladly do, BTW) on her first Pablo LP "How Long Has This Been Going On?" If you know Sarah's soaring contralto, you know that she regularly added coloratura-like touches, including a throaty vibarto and a delicious head tone, to select lyrics. To hear her voice at its splendid best, you need to capture its power, its color, its range, and, for lack of better words, its volume—for all of her various coloratura touches come from slightly different places in the acoustic space that is "Sarah Vaughn on record" (and that was "Sarah Vaughn in life"). She variously uses her head, her nose, her mouth (actually various parts of her mouth, including a certain "chewiness" on select lyrics, as if she is actually tasting and savoring the words), her throat, and her chest to achieve that famous "operatic" range, timbre, and texture. In life, these things—head, nose, mouth, throat, chest—aren't a flat plane in acoustic space; they aren’t even a series of planes (which is the way they are generally presented on solid-state). They are one continuous “volume,” a single three-dimensional acoustic object .
With solid-state you generally (not always) get a pronounced flattening of this volume, just as you do to a greater extent with digital sources. HP once compared the effect to looking at the world through one eye, and I can't improve on that. With the 610T and the Ref 5, what seems more like "one-eyed" vision becomes binocular. It is quite an amazing difference to hear Sarah go from a relatively flat image to a fully round three-dimensional one standing in three-dimensional space and surrounded by three-dimensional space. It is also amazingly realistic. I've used the analogy before but it really is like the difference between looking at a large-format photograph and looking at a life-sized statue. The photograph, through two-dimensional, is very very finely detailed in a way that the statue isn't and it is also very realistic. But the statue is dimensional, solid, and lifelike in a way that the photo isn't.
Now there are some ilisteners who would claim that tube gear's "binocularity" is a distortion, a Doppler-like effect that leaves the impression of dimensionality where there really isn’t one. This may be. There is no question that solid-state has superior transient speed, better grip in the bass and treble, lower noise, and more precisely focused resolution of transient-related details. Indeed, I would be willing to concede that if you want to know what has been recorded on a record with the highest fidelity to the source, you are, more often than not, better off with solid-state. BUT if you belong to the "absolute sound" contingent (with one foot in the "sounds-good-to-me" camp), you simply have to hear the 1.7s driven by top-line ARC (or maybe, by extension, any first-rate tubes). It isn’t “the best” sound I’ve heard in my home, but it is one of the most astonishingly lifelike, everywhere but the lowest bass and maybe the topmost treble.
Comments
Now, someone build an affordable tube amp that will drive these speakers.
Mark
Hey, Quicksilver Audio V4s, 120 watt monoblocks at less than $5,000! Not bad.
Mark,
Amen to that! It's weird and wonderful how ARC fits Magnepan like a hand in a glove, and always has. Nonetheless, there are probably several other high-power tube amps out there from companies like VTL and conrad-johnson and Manley that will do nearly the same trick. For the record, the 610Ts are expensive but considering the soild-state competition I've put them up against from Soulution ($115k!), BAlabo ($80k), and Technical Brain (TBD), they're actually a bargain at $39k.
Jon
Hey there Mr. V, any tube amps, say $20K-$30K to drive these puppies? $40K is a bit out of my league.
Keep up the great writing, man.
What about the McIntosh MC2301s? 300 watt tube monoblocks at just over $20k.
There are plenty of tube/tube-hybrid amps whose costs are MUCH more in line with the 1.7s than the 610Ts . My point wasn't that you needed a $39k 610T to drive them, just that they are good enough to pair up beautifully with the best tube amplification I've heard.
If I were shopping for a tube amp to go with the 1.7s, I'd consider numbers from Vincent. T.A.C., Audio Space, Antique Sound Labs, and PrimaLuna, as well as aomewhat lower-powered and far less expensive numbers from ARC, c-j, VTL, McIntosh, and Manley. You don't have to spend tens of thousands to get great sound from the 1.7s!
Thanks, there. Do you get the same 3d effect when you run that amp on your big Logans as well or just with the Maggie? Are those 2 speakers more similar or different?
Yes, to a degree. But there is something about Maggies and ARC tubes that's positively magical. It's as if each supplies exactly what the other lacks--the Maggies, a touch of transient speed, a tonal blanace that is a little leaner in the bass and a little brighter in the top treble, a midrange that is well-night perfectly neutral in color but a little lacking in body; the ARC, a little boost in the midbass that fills the Maggies out just so, a little softness in the top treble that suits those ribbons, a dimensionality that makes a midrange presentation that can sometimes sound a bit thinned out and weightless with certain transistor amps incredibly three-dimensional and lifelike. Though the Logans pair beautifully with the 610Ts, too, that magic isn't there in quite the same way because the Logans aren't contoured in the same way--tonally, texturally, and dynamically--as the Maggies. (They are also a tougher load.)
And, Jon, interestingly enough, Antique Sound Lab's amps -- which you referred to - are dynamic and "present" in the midbass and softer on top,particularly the Hurricanes. THe H'canes are superb on vocals - Sarah being mermerizing on them - and, I imagine -- and hope -- the 1.7s to retain that magical quality, as you so found on the ARCs. I'm looking forward hearing the 1.7s with the 'Canes. I've always found them (the 'Canes) to be dazzling (if occasionally unreliable in the earlier interations).
It sounds as though you've noticed a few limitations to the Maggies, but is this inherent in the line, or just the 1.7s? I'm guessing the former.
All of this is by way of asking, will the review likely arrive later this year? It'd be great to have a Christmas present to buy onself (wink).
Glen
What about the ARC Ref 210 monoblocks JV?
John,
I've been asked this before and my answer remains the same. The right amp for you depends on the kind of music you usually listen to, the SPLs that you usually listen at, and the size of your room. It is entirely possible that the Ref 210 will be perfect. For the matter, the Ref 110 or the VS115 may suffice under the right circumstances. The only trouble with Maggies is that they crave power to sound their most "lifelike." This is ameliorated to a certain extent in the 1.7s, which, as I've previously noted, sound "better" (i.e., retain dynamic scale) at lower average SPLs than any previous Magggie I've heard; however, they still want a certain amount of power to sound their most realistic. How much is enough for your music, your listening levels, and your room is the question, and that can only be answered by experiment.
One of the things that VTL offers that ARC currently doesn't is something in between 200Wpc and 600+Wpc in the form of the S-400 stereo amp and the MB-450 Series II monoblocks.
Jon
Jon, glad to see you are not averted to having everything on a rack behind the speakers. All my friends kept telling me that I should keep everything except amplifiers on the side wall so there will not be anything to disturb the speakers ability to throw good soundstage. I suppose I would not mind so much if IC that I use are not a few thousands dollars a meter and the thought of getting 5M IC just about to give me a heart attack!
Suteetat,
I'm well aware that putting anything between speakers is a no-no (according to received audiophile wisdom), but given the configuration of my room this is the only place I can put the rack without going to very long lengths of interconnect, cable, and power cords--all of which have their own sonic drawbacks--and without altering the sound I get in my carefully damped and configured room, which is excellent. If the stand is affecting soundstaging, it sure isn't affecting it dramatically, as anyone who's listened in this room can attest. Plus I've doctored the room treatment to offset the effect of the stand--at least to some extent.
Jon
Has anyone heard the 400w all tube Wolcott audio P400 reference mono blocks (US$13699) ? http://www.wolcottaudio.com/
Are those Mapleshade stands under the 610s.
Nope. Walker Audio.
Did you try the Maggie 1.7s with the Soulution, BAlabo, or Technical Brain components.
Indeed, I did. It was great with all three, as you can tell from my initial post at www.avguide.com/blog/magneplanar-17-first-listen.
Jon:
Can you get a VS-115 shipped in to try it on the Maggie's?
Mark
Mark,
Maybe. I'll try, as I'm curious about this myself.
Jon
Jon:
any opinion about older ARC Classic 120s and the Maggie 1.7?
cliff
Cliff,
It it has enough power for your music, your listening levels, and your room, it should do just swell.
Jon
And, Jon, interestingly enough, Antique Sound Lab's amps -- which you mentioned - are, like ARC's amps, full in the midbass and softer on top, particularly the Hurricane amps. The H'canes are also magical on vocals, Sarah being mezmerizing on them. I'm hoping the combination of 'Canes and 1.7s retain that magical quality, as you have found on the ARCs. I would imagine the ASLs to be just, perhaps, "darker" than ARC, unless ARC's sound has shifted towards the dark side in the past 10 years or so.
To clarify, It sounds as though you've noticed a few limitations to the Maggies, but is this inherent in the line -- and mostly with solid state -- or just the 1.7s themselves with solid state? You may, of course, have already tried other tube lines with them, but this IS, after all, a blog revealing the synergy you've found between the 1.7s and the ARCs, so it makes sense no other tubes have been mentioned.
All of this is by way of asking, will the review likely arrive later this year?
Glen
Brion,
Let me be clear: The MG 1.7, IMO, is the most coherent and perhaps the most lifelike (in the midband) single-panel Magneplanar I've heard, including ALL of the more expensive single-panel Maggies. Its "limitations," if you want to call them that, come with the territory of ribbons and quasi-ribbons and with the physical limitations of the speaker. Esepcially when pushed hard (or harder) ribbons tend to light up the upper mids/treble with a bit more energy than some (not all) cones, although the 1.7's quasi-ribbon super-tweet and mid/tweet are VERY well-behaved compared to Maggie's true ribbons, and planar deep bass is limited by the size and excursion of the mid/bass panel. While any extra zip can be ameliorated by tubes (such as the 610T), it can also be well-controlled by solid-state amps with great grip, sufficient power, and a neutral (or sweetish) balance, like the Soulution 700 or the BAlabo, which, in their own slightly different ways, are also superb combinations with the 1.7s.
I will have more to say about all of this in my review, which is slated for our speaker issue later this year.
Jon
Is it worth me selling my 5 month old 1.6's for a pair of the 1.7's? How big a difference is there in you opinion - if you have one on the 1.6 QR?
When will you test odyssey amps with 1.7 maggies? Very curious about that.
Odyssey is up next.
Of course, Mr. V, I'm salivating to get the pair of 1.7s that are due to arrive in the near future. Readers should know that I'm currently using top-end Cary tube gear (CAD 211 FE amps, SLP-05 preamp), but will have the chance to try a range of far more affordable stuff as time goes by. I'm sure there is plenty out there that will work beautifully with these speakers.
Wayne Garcia
Archduke!
What an unexpected and delightful pleasure to hear from you on-line! Vis-a-vis the 1.7s, your patience and expectations will be rewarded, I guarantee you. These are great speakers. Game-changers, actually.
LVoO
I figured it was about time I chimed in here. That is my hand on your shoulder in the photo, after all! And isn't it great to see Magnepan smoking hot?
WG
It is great to see Magnepan making headlines again. And if I do say so myself, it's about time. Ten years between products intros is just way too long.
And all this terrific music coming from the Maggies on their stock feet...I'd say that the knock out 'blow', will be fully realised, when they are secured to a well braced set of after market stands!
I intend to try "bracing" in the near future. Back in the day, I use to "mass-load" my Maggies with sandbags and barbell weights and then pin them to the ceiling with spring-loaded curtain rods. Yes...I was insane.
Nah, that's not insanity Jon, that's just the music lover, 'coming out' in you!
Sorry the off topic but knowing your long experience of ARC I wonder how good match do you think ARC pre amps (Ref 3 or LS-26) and Lamm M1.2 would be.
jka,
I think--in fact, I know--that ARC preamps are good matches with Lamm amps. OTOH, Lamm preamps are mighty good matches with Lamm amps, too.
Jon
Speaking of Lamm amps, would the M1.2Ref or 2.2 be a good match with Magnepan 3.6´s (or 1.7´s)?
Scepic,
Yes, to both Lamms. The 2.2, with more power, might be better if you tend to listen to rock or jazz at loud levels, the 1.2 if you listen to classical or smaller-scale acoustic at more moderate levels.
Jon
Try Vacuum State Electronics. I know from first hand experience Allen Wright builds/designs first rate gear at a fraction of the price of the better known brands. Check out Bill Gaw's reviews. If you're handy with a soldering iron you can even get kit forms.
Jon,
Have you listened to 1.6s with wooden frames and modified crossovers a la Magnestand? If so, your thoughts vs 1.7s.
Randy
Randy,
Sorry, but I haven't heard 1.6s modified along the lines you ask about, so I can't compare them to the 1.7s.
Jon
I had two not convincing experiences with ARC 610T + Ref 3
both in the same acoustically prepared room
1) with MBL 111 E or F (I can't remember) ... impossible to hear Mahler 1st symphony (Zinman/Tonhalle SACD) at high volume, sometimes you want to get into the ppp passages and zoom with the ears, very boomy bass ... the 610T were working hard but without results
2) with Lumen White's Silver Flame, cold and almost hard ... but here the problem could be the loudspeakers
it seems difficult to find combinations which are working
in the case of the Maggie 1,7 on one side you have what must be a champion quality/price relation on the other you have the ultra expensive ARC stuff ... also a strange combination, don't you think so?
best regards
Clavil,
Yes, the 610Ts and the 1.7s are a strange combination. As I've said (several times), I don't expect anyone to actually use 610Ts with 1.7s. My point was that the 1.7s are GOOD ENOUGH to be used with the best amplification, tube and solid-state.
As for the 610Ts, I've used them, quite successfully, with MBL 101 Es and 101Xs in my home system. (MBL itself likes this combo with its speakers, and the big VTLs, too.) Indeed, I've used them successfully with every speaker I've had in house. No, the 610Ts don't have the iron grip in the bottom octave that solid-state amps like the MBL 9011s do (the 9011s remain, IMO, THE best combo with MBL's Radialstrahlers), but the 610Ts never sounded objectionably "boomy" in the bass in my setup and they were (and are) superb at low-level resolution of colors and textures. Indeed, along with lifelike bloom and dimensionality and that magical midrange of theirs, low-level resolution is one of their signal strengths.
I don't know about the Lumen Whites, but ceramic-driver speakers, especially if they aren't fully broken-in, can tend to sound "cold and hard" and a touch analytical with ANY amp. The 610Ts themselves are anything but "cold and hard."
JV
Johnathan -- when you're talking about "lifelike", what SPL levels are we talking about? I'm just trying to figure out how low I can go and whether or not these will be a good fit for my typical listening habits ....
Also, you seem to be saying that tubes are fine, as long as we're talking 600w or more. But what about 100 watt amps like the Manley Snapper? Will these amps, a better price match to the Magnepan 1.7s to be sure than the 40k ARCs, simply starve them?
Socrates.
I'll to be trying the 1.7s out with the 140Wpc Odyssey Khartagos and the 120Wpc ARC VS115. After this I'll be in a better position to answer your questions.
Jon
Jon - Have you heard mods of the 3.6R's, 2.6R's, and 1.6QR's? For example, a complete rebuild (of the 1.6QR) by P Gunn creates Maggies that the 1.7's can't come close to IMO. With my own 3.6R's .. just adding Mye Stands, higher quality fuses, and custom built X-overs from Parts ConneXtion ... these Maggies have been taken to a much higher level...Total additional cost was $550 for the stands, $1500 for the X-overs and $5 for the fuses.... These $7500 3.6R's compete now with speakers in the $12K and up range....
JRD,
I have not heard modified 1.6s, 2.6s, or 3.6s, but I will be trying the 1.7s with Mye stands in the near future.
Jon
If you have the time, check out Audio Asylum (Planar Asylum) for lots of info on similiar mods....
Thanks, Jon.
Can I re-ask this, though? When you're talking about "lifelike", what SPL levels are we talking about? I'm just trying to figure out how low I can go and whether or not these will be a good fit for my typical listening habits ....
Socrates,
I've been listening to the 1.7s at relatively loud levels (for me)--typically 90-95dB average SPLs, with peaks in the high 90s and well into the low 100s.
Jon
Ouch. That's loud!
Socrates,
Yeah. Much louder than I usually listen, but I wanted to see how far I could push the 1.7s. I typically listen to music at average SPLs in the lower-to-mid 80dB range.
Jon
The Rogue Atlas Magnum amplifiers are a solid 90wpc into 4 ohms with excellent transformers for control at under $2k, or their outstanding monoblock 180wpc for $5k and change too many people overlook this excellent brand
check em out and you will see made in the U.S.A still has some excellent values out there !
Hey there Mr. V,
Can the single Soulution amp drive this speaker or does it poop out?
The Solution 700 monoblocks, used as monoblocks, do just fine with ihe 1.7s. I haven't tried the 710, so can's say for sure, although I'd imagine that its 240Wpx (into 4 ohms) would be enough for most music/rooms.
Dear Mr. Valin ~ Given that rooms and electronics proffer endless variations, could you please suggest a starting point for setup with the new 1.7s? I've been living with the 1.6's, tweeters to the outside edges about 7 feet apart, speakers 30" off the wall, listening chair 10 feet from plane of speakers. Many happy hours of music, by the way. My new 1.7s will arrive soon (not soon enough!) and I would love to hear your suggestions for setup -- particularly with regard to toe-in -- with tweeters "outboard." (Or inboard?). P.S. Thank you, Jon, for you years of service to our community of music lovers. Your observations are insightful and your writing communicates your ideas so effectively. best wishes, Greg
Greg,
First of all, thank you sincerely for the very kind words.
As for Maggie 1.7 setup, I think you may find (and Maggie recommends) that because of their supertweeters the 1.7s will do better listened to on-axis, with the panels aimed toward your ears rather than aligned more or less in parallel to the backwalls as Maggies customarily are. Other than that, your previous 1.6 setup should be fine for the 1.7s. You may find yourself tweaking little things like distance from the backwall and sidewalls, but that's normal.
Let us know how the 1.7s work for you!
Jon
Greg,
I meant to add: Maggie also generally recommends that the 1.7s be set up with the super-tweeters to the inside (as they are in my setup), but this is NOT mandatory. According to Maggie, roughly 60% of listeners prefer the 1.7s with the tweeters inside (and the other 40% with tweeters out). Obviously, their "correct" location will depend on you, your room, and your music.
Jon
Jonathan ~ Thank you for that information, and your suggestions. I have my 1.6s set up with tweeters to the outside, about 7 feet apart, and I had assumed I'd set up the 1.7s (when they arrive) the same way. My thought was that this provided the widest sound stage, but, as you point out, Maggie is recommending the 1.7s be set up with the super-tweeters to the inside. Sound staging aside, could you please tell me what are some of the other factors at play here? Thank you.
The 1.7s are now mine! Muhahaha
Just got back from a 10 hour roadtrip to pick them up, still tweaking the final position, but they sound utterly fantastic! I dont have a sweet tube amp to drive them, but my Outlaw 7500 puts out enough clean power to make them scream.
front of the "chamber":
s142.photobucket.com/albums/r117/dawsonblah/?action=view¤t=front.jpg
back of the room:
s142.photobucket.com/albums/r117/dawsonblah/?action=view¤t=rear.jpg
John, any word on the Mye stands?
Mr. Valin,
I know this blog post is dedicated to maggie and arc, but this is a bit misleading in terms of the actual substance. I like Maggies, but I like Logans and Soundlabs much, much better. However, I am really drooling about hearing the ARC amps. Your compare / contrast of tube and SS amplifiers is the best I have ever read. Too bad it is hiding in a blog post, and not part of an audiophile reference to commonly asked questions.
With that said, have you ever heard any SS amplifiers that have been engineered to create that dimensionality you are referring to? 20 years ago or so, my Carver receiver had something called holographic imaging. Is this similar to what you are talking about? These days when people are talking about their expensive solid state amps sounding like tubes, are they talking about something similar to what you are saying, or are they referring to other aspects of the sound? Finally, how much of this dimensionality is due to the recording, and how much of it is inherent in tube amp design? Thanks!
So why not Start a new thread about M-L, S-L and solid state?
Jonathan Valin:
Does pairing the 1.7s with a NAD m3 have your blessing?
Haven't heard the combo, Anon, though the M3 has gotten excellent press.
Jon
<p>"I meant to add: Maggie also generally recommends that the 1.7s be set up with the super-tweeters to the inside (as they are in my setup), but this is NOT mandatory. According to Maggie, roughly 60% of listeners prefer the 1.7s with the tweeters inside (and the other 40% with tweeters out). Obviously, their "correct" location will depend on you, your room, and your music."</p><br><br>
Why would the "correct" supertweeter orientation (inside/outside) depend on your music?
audiophilesavant,
I think what I meant was "how you like your favorite music to sound." Changing the orientation of the tweeter may change the overall balance of the speaker (making high frequencies and low frequencies slightly more or slightly less prominent, depending on setup and room).
JV
Jonathan,
Wanted to let you know how much I enjoy reading your reviews, typically honest and fair.
I just read your review of the Magnepan 1.7 as well as your nomination for the 10 most important speakers of all time. Leads to my crazy question. Having owned magnepans from 1973- 2001, I know the sound and really wish I still had them. I've heard the new 1.7 models and they sound great. My question revolves around the Tympani models (1-D). I had a good friend pass away and his wife wants these monsters out of her home (the fight with my wife may just be starting!). These speakers till sound absolutely amazing, and are in excellent shape. Am I nuts for thinking about fighting this battle or do you think I would be better off buying the new 1.7? I know this is a difficult one to answer, but these Tympanis have always held a spot in my audiophile heart. Should I fight the batlle with the Mrs or go with new technology. I still walk with a bit of a limp after my wigfe tried to put the old Magnepans "where the sun don't shine" - if you know what I mean. Had to ask.